One shot Jump Drives

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
baithammer
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby baithammer » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:24 am

The distance is going to be too great to fully monitor it with Traveller sensors, especially if we are talking a depth of 45,000 AU!
The inner ort cloud is roughly 310 Billion km from the sun and with the Gravitational Analysis Suite an automatic jump detection of 274 Billion km within 24 hrs. ( That is one sensor.)
phavoc
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby phavoc » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:27 pm

baithammer wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:24 am
The distance is going to be too great to fully monitor it with Traveller sensors, especially if we are talking a depth of 45,000 AU!
The inner ort cloud is roughly 310 Billion km from the sun and with the Gravitational Analysis Suite an automatic jump detection of 274 Billion km within 24 hrs. ( That is one sensor.)
This piece of equipment is from the deep space exploration handbook? It seems rather over-powered to me.
peelseel2
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby peelseel2 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:22 pm

If it detected at 274 billion km in 24 hours it is travelling faster then the speed of light. Light travels ~24 billion km in 24 hours.
baithammer
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby baithammer » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:26 pm

If they didn't have that tech, then the number of patrol vessels would need to be much higher.
phavoc
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby phavoc » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:53 pm

But the tech didn't exist in any previous version. And you'd still need the same number of patrol vessels.

Assuming we go with that... your detector kicks off and detects a ship emerging from jump space at 100 AU. What are ya gonna do about it?? It's a week to send a ship to the point it arrived at, by which time the ship could be anywhere, even jumped back out.

And yeah, it breaks the FTL limit. It's too much Star Trek and not Traveller. In Star Trek they have real-time sensors that detect things light years around them. Traveller does (should) not.
Condottiere
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby Condottiere » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:55 pm

Gravitons move faster than light?
baithammer
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby baithammer » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:13 pm

Technically it doesn't break physics as its gravity wave that is detected, which is a ripple in space itself rather than matter / energy moving through space.
Assuming we go with that... your detector kicks off and detects a ship emerging from jump space at 100 AU. What are ya gonna do about it?? It's a week to send a ship to the point it arrived at, by which time the ship could be anywhere, even jumped back out.
For starters, it may have detected a misjump and might need some help.

If the ship jumps out, it creates another signature in the same time frame so you wouldn't need to continue moving assets to that location.

It needs to be thought of like radar, it allows you to know where to direct assets and reduce the number of patrols to provide the same coverage. ( Also can detect number of vessels that have jumped which is a major boost to readiness.)
peelseel2
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby peelseel2 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:17 am

"Einstein's relativistic equation for gravity based on general relativity demands that gravity travels at the speed of light, otherwise the predictions we get for the bending of light and the precession of the perihelion of Mercury would be quite different than what is experimentally determined."
-https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/r ... q1510.html
peelseel2
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby peelseel2 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:17 am

Double Post.
Last edited by peelseel2 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
phavoc
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby phavoc » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:19 am

baithammer wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:13 pm
Technically it doesn't break physics as its gravity wave that is detected, which is a ripple in space itself rather than matter / energy moving through space.
Assuming we go with that... your detector kicks off and detects a ship emerging from jump space at 100 AU. What are ya gonna do about it?? It's a week to send a ship to the point it arrived at, by which time the ship could be anywhere, even jumped back out.
For starters, it may have detected a misjump and might need some help.

If the ship jumps out, it creates another signature in the same time frame so you wouldn't need to continue moving assets to that location.

It needs to be thought of like radar, it allows you to know where to direct assets and reduce the number of patrols to provide the same coverage. ( Also can detect number of vessels that have jumped which is a major boost to readiness.)
Meh. It's a canon-breaker for sure. It provides nothing really useful but causes all kinds of problems with all the tech-lines and history before it. If the MGT version started out as a brand new take on Traveller that'd be different. But it started out as a CT-remake and went from there. Plus this isn't filling in any holes, it's opening them up.

This being Traveller everyone is free to interpret and do as they please, so obviously people are going to be free to include and exclude as desired. Personally I don't think this tech is doing anybody a favor.
Reynard
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby Reynard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:16 am

What's one jump flash at 100 AU where ships really have no reason being? A massive misjump or suicidal and too far away to send assets at great cost to see who's there.

What's dozens or hundreds of jump flashes at 100 AU? A fleet that massively misjumped or suicidal since they just announced their very suspicious presence in great numbers at light speed and now will attempt to attack a target well aware and preparing. At those distances, the defender can now send forces to gas giants most likely in the path and wait long before the attacker covers that huge distance as well as send scouts ahead to locate the attacker and report at light speed. Pointing your sensor assets where invaders would most likely jump exit and travel to reach fuel before continuing is a lot easier. Pray the attacker brought lots of tankers.
baithammer
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby baithammer » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:38 am

peelseel2 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:17 am
"Einstein's relativistic equation for gravity based on general relativity demands that gravity travels at the speed of light, otherwise the predictions we get for the bending of light and the precession of the perihelion of Mercury would be quite different than what is experimentally determined."
-https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/r ... q1510.html
That is when it was used as a force rather than space itself, it's why things still test our models.
peelseel2
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby peelseel2 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:02 am

Deep Space Exploration Handbook, Gravitational Analysis Suite (TL13)......."It can be used to predict the presence of objects in deep space or track gravity waves caused by jump entry and breakout. Of course, since gravity waves propagate at the speed of light, a jump emergence detected in a system one parsec away will have occurred over three years previously, however this can still be useful in predicting traffic patterns, naval movements or the presence of a starfaring culture....."

So not "breaking" any standard Traveller shtick. Just like using dispersed deep space telescopes, it can detect things in the Oort cloud where they where anywhere from 11 days in the past for a 2000 au distance, to where it was 577 days in the past for the 100000 au outer limit on the Oort.
Reynard
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby Reynard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:09 am

With the talk about outfitting battle riders with one shots, I made an very strained conceptualization for system monitors equipped with one shots to get them out of losing situations as well as all the cons. Still trying to come up with practical uses.

One I did today was a relatively cheap hundred ton emergency boat as part of a breakaway system. Jump 2, 1g and carries a crew of four (Pilot, astrogator and two stewards with medic training) and 60 low berths plus a medical bay. This is one step above life pods and launches. Obviously for larger ships purpose built with the boat.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:04 am

Reynard wrote: One I did today was a relatively cheap hundred ton emergency boat as part of a breakaway system. Jump 2, 1g and carries a crew of four (Pilot, astrogator and two stewards with medic training) and 60 low berths plus a medical bay.
With a breakaway design all drives can be added, so no need for extra jump drives in the life boat, you can just place a part of the regular jump drive in the life boat section.
Reynard
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby Reynard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:48 am

The Breakaway rule (to me) sounds like you design the systems in each vessel separately then calculate the potential of the jump, maneuver and power systems when combined. Might be the same idea but it seems simpler to purpose each unit separately.
baithammer
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby baithammer » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:55 am

Breakaway hulls aren't required to have the same systems, just power for the sections systems and a bridge / cockpit.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:28 pm

Reynard wrote: The Breakaway rule (to me) sounds like you design the systems in each vessel separately then calculate the potential of the jump, maneuver and power systems when combined. Might be the same idea but it seems simpler to purpose each unit separately.
It gives the same result.

Either way an extra redundant jump drive in the life-ship is unnecessary.

Example: A 1000 Dt breakaway ship including a 100 Dt life-ship section. Both have J-2 capability.
The total ship needs a 55 Dt jump drive, the life-ship needs a 10 Dt jump drive. So we place a 45 Dt drive in the main section and 10 Dt in the life-ship section, total 55 Dt.


You propose to have a 55Dt jump drive in the main section and an additional 10 Dt one-shot drive in the life-ship, wasting 10 Dt and MCr 5 as far as I can see.

If you calculate each section completely separately the 900 Dt main section requires a 50 Dt drive, and the life-ship a 10 Dt drive, but then the total ship can't jump without using the one-shot drive in the life-section and the total ship has an over-provisioned drive capacity.
phavoc
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby phavoc » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:05 pm

Ok, went to the pdf and read up on it more. From the DSE Handbook:

GRAVITATIONAL ANALYSIS SUITE (TL13)
A gravitational analysis suite permits the detection and analysis of extremely weak gravitic phenomena. It can be used to predict the presence of objects in deep space or track gravity waves caused by jump entry and breakout. Of course, since gravity waves propagate at the speed of light, a jump emergence detected in a system one parsec away will have occurred over three years previously, however this can still be useful in predicting traffic patterns, naval movements or the presence of a starfaring culture.

The suite requires a combined total of five levels of the Science skill to operate it, which can be supplied by one scientist or a group of up to four – the maximum accommodated in a single suite. For each class of object there is an Automatic Detection Range; beyond this
distance, detection requires a Difficult (10+) Electronics (sensors) check, applying DM-1 for each multiple of the Automatic Detection Range.

Object or Occurrence - Automatic Detection Range
Supermassive object, such as a black hole - 300 parsecs

Stellar object, such as a star - 30 parsecs

Planetary scale object (gas giant or terrestrial planet) - 3 parsecs

Jump emergence or entry - 1 parsec

Cometary object - 1/10th of a parsec

A search and plot requires a number of hours equal to 1Dx10, multiplied by the distance, in parsecs, being searched. For example, a ship with a gravitational analysis suite can plot the gravitational signature of every star within 30 parsecs, requiring 1Dx10x30 hours. The ship will also automatically detect any jump emergence within 1 parsec at the time the gravity waves reach the analysis suite.

Beyond the Automatic Detection Range, an Electronic (sensors) check is required. Failure indicates little useful data has been obtained and for each multiple of the Automatic Detection Range, DM-1 is applied, so attempting to detect planets at 8 parsecs is subject
to DM-2.

Adding a gravitational analysis suite to a ship’s sensor system consumes 5 tons, uses 6 Power and costs MCr12.


While I'm not at all opposed to fleshing out things in Traveller, this particular piece of equipment seems to be too much of a game changer. There is an automated Science package available also, so reading between the lines here it would seem that if you installed five Science software packages you can fully automate the detection system (which is not unreasonable) - though replacing five personnel with software costs a minimum of MCr20. If I'm reading the description correctly, a specific science software package gives you a +2DM, so I don't know if you need THREE packages to get to the five levels of science or you'd need a single operator and two packages (or one?).

In any case this piece of equipment basically states that a ship entering or leaving jumpspace sends out a spherical gravitational shockwave that is powerful enough to be detected 3 light years away. Such a piece of gear would be standard on fleet scouts and probably most patrol vessels due to its unique utility - for example if you were near or in enemy space and you detected a large number of ships departing an enemy nodal fleet base you'd have potential warning of the enemy coming to your position (especially if you had been in the enemy system for a week battling it out).

It just seems a bit to Star Trek for the game. I sometimes wonder if when new stuff is added as a supplement any thought is given to how it might affect all the other existing designs and game play?
Condottiere
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Re: One shot Jump Drives

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:37 am

If I thought detection of mass movement of naval ships was possible ny long distance sensors and tactically useful to the enemy, I'd introduce a lot of noise into the equation.

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