Large Scout Ships?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
qstor
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby qstor » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:21 pm

T20 had a 1,000 ton Qasar class Scout Cruiser in Scout Cruiser by Michael Taylor
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Condottiere
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:50 pm

I'm pretty sure Scout Cruisers are canon, and new construction.

I don't think they'd bother with a spinal mount.
phavoc
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby phavoc » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:16 am

Sigtrygg wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:51 pm
phavoc wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:47 pm
The role of the scout service is one that doesn't really require large capital ships. They have a bigger need to be more places simultaneously than needing to be in a fewer places with a bigger stick.
Canon disagrees. The IISS had 40,000t cruisers on twenty year mission exploring beyond Imperial space in AotI and they have four 60,000t AHLs in 1105+. The ISS does use large cruisers - to cruise in the old fashioned mission sense of the word.
One problem with the Traveller universe for this aspect is that the Imperial borders are pretty well set.
There are routes the IISS scout cruisers can take that allow them to explore beyond Imperial space and avoid their powerful neighbours even in 1105+, not flotillas but certainly large cruisers with auxiliary jump vessels would fit the bill.
Beyond the more capable scout ships mounting more capable sensors, Traveller ships can jump into a systems outer edge and stooge around for months looking to find out what kind of alien civilization may exist in the few unexplored systems. So justifying 60k cruisers is tough. Justifying a 2k cruiser is far easier. And justifying thousands of tiny 100 ton Serpent ships is really easy.
For a twenty year exploration mission a cruiser sized ship is necessary so that it can carry the machinery to conduct its own maintainance. Maker shops, stores, spares all take up space. Using jump 5 or higher means you need a big ship to have enough room left over after jump fuel for everything else you need - large crew quarters, extensive medical facilities etc.
What books detail the 40k dton scout ships? I don't recall those.

I'm not disputing what you have listed above, however you point out exceptions rather than standards. There are nearly always exceptions to nearly every rule. Would a service as large as the ISS have some larger ships? Sure. But it's not their apparent norm. Why would they need such large ships? Long-range missions are again the exception. If you look at the map of the Imperium there isn't a large set of unexplored space that requires long-term scouting mission. The Imperium isn't the Zhodani looking to make it to the core of the galaxy. And if you are 100 parsecs from Imperial space, the first question is 'why', but even if the answer is 'because it's unexplored', the Imperium wouldn't be setting up new colonies that far from contiguous borders. So again we are left with the exception rather than the rule.
Sigtrygg
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:45 pm

The true powers behind the throne of the Imperium know that the empress wave is coming, that there will be a time of complete chaos (the rebellion and virus era perhaps) and an invasion by the black ships (Lucan's Black Imperium fleets or perhaps something even more threatening Essaray/Esseray, Abyssals, jump kraken). Long range scouting missions is how the Imperium knows about the other areas of the galaxy (see original galaxy map in T5 book rather than electronic edition).

There is a very great need to learn about these threats so that something can be done about them.

If you want to understand the OTU read Agent of the Imperium.
phavoc
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby phavoc » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:52 pm

Yeah, I'll pass on agent book.

While T5 is official (and I'm a kickstarter backer), it's a dust collector as far as I'm concerned. The Empress Wave is something that I've never bothered with or done much with. And one would have to figure out if it's going to be part of the Traveller universe or not. Virus was canon, then discarded. 1248 was canon, then discarded. Other stuff was canon then discarded. So the Wave is probably one of those things best left discarded.
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Condottiere » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:38 pm

I don't doubt largish Scout Cruisers exist, but I suspect the big ones are repurposed from the Navy's surplus.

Are the Scouts inclined to maintain personnel heavy ships? Because if not, large Scout cruisers are likely the exception.
RogerMc
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby RogerMc » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:52 pm

phavoc wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:52 pm
Yeah, I'll pass on agent book.

While T5 is official (and I'm a kickstarter backer), it's a dust collector as far as I'm concerned. The Empress Wave is something that I've never bothered with or done much with. And one would have to figure out if it's going to be part of the Traveller universe or not. Virus was canon, then discarded. 1248 was canon, then discarded. Other stuff was canon then discarded. So the Wave is probably one of those things best left discarded.
So at what point was Virus 'discarded'?
Sigtrygg
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:35 pm

phavoc wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:52 pm
Yeah, I'll pass on agent book.
In which case you miss out on the canonical Third Imperial setting as best described by its actual author.
While T5 is official (and I'm a kickstarter backer), it's a dust collector as far as I'm concerned.
As a game it is unplayable, the rules are broken and very important systems such as combat do not work. But, there is so much in it that actually describes the Imperial setting - from the synthetics chapter to the various makers there is stuff in there that defines the setting.
The Empress Wave is something that I've never bothered with or done much with.
A problem many authors have faced, including MWM himself since he wasn't at GDW when the concepts behind the wave were discussed and he doesn't know the original version of its origin.
And one would have to figure out if it's going to be part of the Traveller universe or not.
It is part of the Third Imperium setting as defined by MgT, TNE and AotI/T5.
Virus was canon, then discarded.
No, it is still part of the setting according to T5.
1248 was canon, then discarded.
Not discarded, just some details are invalidated by retcons, especially MgT retcons such as the speed of the wave.
Other stuff was canon then discarded.
Very little setting material is discarded, rules and their interpretations of the setting are often discarded.
So the Wave is probably one of those things best left discarded.
There is a hint of a resolution possibility in AotI and T5 that could re-write the setting...
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:52 am

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:35 pm
1248 was canon, then discarded.
Not discarded, just some details are invalidated by retcons, especially MgT retcons such as the speed of the wave.
So the Wave is probably one of those things best left discarded.
There is a hint of a resolution possibility in AotI and T5 that could re-write the setting...
Speeding up the Empress Wave and making it more lethal was Marc's call. Don got to write it up, and Mongoose published it.
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Sigtrygg
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:35 pm

I think you have missed the point I was making.

MWM was never in on the original intent behind the wave. He had left GDW by the time Dave Nilsen, Frank Chadwick et al produced TNE.

As a result MWM opted to change the wave because he never understood it, had no idea of its original intent, and didn't have a clue how it would have been used in TNE had it continued as a game line.

When Martin wrote the 1248 material it was based on the lightspeed wave as described in TNE, the retcon/revision invalidated TNE and some 1248 material. MWM has kept the wave as a phenomena since it is mentioned in the MgT ATU, the AotI OTU and of course the now wooly canon TNE.

T5 includes very high TL reality manipulation technology, and there is a chapter in AotI that makes for very interesting reading if you bear this in mind. It is possible to reconcile setting differences as the result of reality manipulation performed by some as yet unknown race.
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby phavoc » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:57 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:35 pm
I think you have missed the point I was making.

MWM was never in on the original intent behind the wave. He had left GDW by the time Dave Nilsen, Frank Chadwick et al produced TNE.

As a result MWM opted to change the wave because he never understood it, had no idea of its original intent, and didn't have a clue how it would have been used in TNE had it continued as a game line.

When Martin wrote the 1248 material it was based on the lightspeed wave as described in TNE, the retcon/revision invalidated TNE and some 1248 material. MWM has kept the wave as a phenomena since it is mentioned in the MgT ATU, the AotI OTU and of course the now wooly canon TNE.

T5 includes very high TL reality manipulation technology, and there is a chapter in AotI that makes for very interesting reading if you bear this in mind. It is possible to reconcile setting differences as the result of reality manipulation performed by some as yet unknown race.
Isn't a "retcon/revision invalidation" the same as discarding something? Each version should be independent of the other. Why else should people continue to buy the "core" rulebook for each new version?
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Moppy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:03 pm

phavoc wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:52 pm
Yeah, I'll pass on agent book.
If you're interested in the the limits of canon, AOTI is poorly written and needs an editor (notice the trend here?) but it does paint a good picture of what happens in secret inside and outside the Imperium and how much is concealed from the Imperium as a whole. This is 2019 secret Jupiter moonbase level stuff.
ChalkLine
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby ChalkLine » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:15 am

There's one repurposed Leviathan Class 1800 dtonner in 1105 on the Spinward Marches.
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Leviathan

It's my assumption that the Navy works inside the Imperium and the scouts work outside in terms of focus. Unlike now where massive fleets cruise 'international waters' the fleets of power like the Zhodani and the Imperium avoid each other's presence. Seeing a scout vessel, even one obviously tracking the fleet is less offensive than an Imperial Navy reconnaissance vessel doing the same thing.
This gives the GM one of the reasons to have a flock of small Scout vessels rather than big behemoths. Big ships are usually the kernel of a fleet and a fleet is a threat. A pokey Suleiman blundering into a system you have assets in isn't much of a problem as having a huge fleet jumping in without clear orders on what to do and tensions causing an 'incident'.
Condottiere
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Re: Large Scout Ships?

Postby Condottiere » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:40 am

The Imperium Scout Service takes up tasks where Imperium Navy intervention would be overkill, or too expensive for the results expected.

A less militaristic Coast Guard, a more relaxed diplomatic corps, but a rather nosy intelligence service.

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