Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
steve98052
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby steve98052 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:18 pm

The Imperium has another advantage over the Zhodani. The Zhodani attack without a strategy for conquest; they try to block Imperial expansion toward spinward and coreward, but aren't trying to expand into Imperial space either. Their long-term strategy toward the Imperium seems to be to provoke wars that the Imperium will win with Pyrrhic victories.

One possible way to look at Imperial history is to hypothesize that Olav was subverted by the Zhodani into trying to take over the Imperium, so that civil war reduced the Imperium as a threat. The main argument against that idea is that the Zhodani didn't exploit the disruption of the Imperium that resulted from the Barracks Emperor era; had they prepared, they might have been able to annex the Spinward Marches while Olav was off beating up the Imperial interior.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby HalC » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:10 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:28 pm
No it doesn't, in the same way that the US Airforce doesn't build WW2 era aircraft for the transport or refueling role, and the US Navy doesn't build WW2 era transports for auxiliary duty - everything is state of the art because that's what the enemy does.

It has auxiliaries and secondary warships at lower TLs due to not building replacements yet.

There is nor evidence in FFW for regular IN assets being anything less than TL15.

The only advantage the Imperium has over the Zhodani and the Solomani is TL, to field warships that do not match their adversaries is idiotic.
The analogy between Wet Navy ship construction and Traveller Ship construction differs a bit...

1) Most of the United States is at the same general tech level.
2) Most of the shipbuilding capabilities are concentrated in industrial areas, which ARE high tech
3) to be more analogous to the Third Imperium, We'd have to have a few states using 1800's technology for farming, manufacturing, transportation etc, and a few states using early pre-atomic technological standards, and then only one or two states at the highest technology the United States is capable of.

Because the people at GDW went the route of a decentralized Third Imperium, that in theory, does not rule over the worlds that are within its sphere, certain oddities if you will, are going to be present.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby HalC » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:16 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:42 pm

The OTU with lots of different TLs implies somehow limited tech transfer.
In researching various of the books put out for the OTU, I came across one thing in HARD TIMES that might explain the issue of "TL" disparity between worlds...

It went on to say that TL isn't necessarily an indicator of knowledge, but of the implementation of that knowledge.

I understood that to mean (based on what was written, and if you want I'll dig it up again and get a page for you if you'd like. I think it was stage 7???) that yes, you might understand the theory behind lasers, but if you don't have the infrastructure to build the lasers, then you're effectively labeled as a TL just below that of Laser production.

The implication I got was that maybe you have a TL 14 world - and it has a lot of things similar to a fully developed TL 15 world, but that some key critical industrial processes/infrastructures are just not present.

If so, then it largely decouples "Knowledge" from "Capability" if you will.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Condottiere » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:27 pm

The obvious second class warship that's built below technological level fifteen is the Gazelle; the less obvious one, which may be only specific to the Mongoverse, are the Plankwells, whose hull is ironcrystalized.

On a more grounded level, one reason industries are offshored are because total cost, whether in terms of labour, regulation, environmental, social, economic and so on, are less burdensome.

Do it in automated manufacturing facilities, whose customer service and sales departments are far more reactive to buyer needs and wishes, or trends, plus any transport costs and possible import tariffs don't need to be paid.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Sigtrygg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:47 pm

The Gazelle isn't a warship:
Hundreds of Gazelle class close escorts have been built and many remain in service in the Imperial Navy, despite the fact that in a combat situation, they are nearly worthless. The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship.
and the Plankwell is TL15.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby phavoc » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:11 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:47 pm
The Gazelle isn't a warship:
Hundreds of Gazelle class close escorts have been built and many remain in service in the Imperial Navy, despite the fact that in a combat situation, they are nearly worthless. The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship.
and the Plankwell is TL15.
An escort is still a warship. A warship is one built for war, or used by a military force, though arguably an armed tug or gig is not a warship in the classic sense, but they could still be considered as such depending on their usage.

It's a relatively expansive label.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Sigtrygg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:21 pm

It's the equivalent of coast guard cutter - it is not a warship. It is an escort in the same way the Kinunir is a battle cruiser ;)
To be even an effective escort it needs to be a minimum of 1000t and have a model 8 or 9 computer to stand a chance against the Zhodani or Solomani it would be pitted against as a warship.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:53 am

Warship can be broadly defined, so I decided to restrict it to actual ships built for combat, basically Gazelle close escorts, not armed trawlers, and the Plankwells, not armed merchant cruisers.

Giving the Plankwells a technological level ten armoured hull seems a deliberate choice by Mongoose. The Jump drives are at default technological level thirteen.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby phavoc » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:10 am

Coast guard cutters have been used in wartime, to escort convoys and hunt submarines. Cutters are warships, though their missions are primarily oriented around peacetime work and not war.

One issue with the Gazelle is that it was designed under CT rules, when the largest possible ship was 5k dtons. Hg later introduced far larger warships, thus the labels and sizes are skewed.

Warships have grown over time as technology has changed. Size inflation is definitely present in the past and the future.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby baithammer » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:23 am

phavoc wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:11 pm
Sigtrygg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:47 pm
The Gazelle isn't a warship:
Hundreds of Gazelle class close escorts have been built and many remain in service in the Imperial Navy, despite the fact that in a combat situation, they are nearly worthless. The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship.
and the Plankwell is TL15.
An escort is still a warship. A warship is one built for war, or used by a military force, though arguably an armed tug or gig is not a warship in the classic sense, but they could still be considered as such depending on their usage.

It's a relatively expansive label.
There are close escorts, destroyer escorts and fleet escorts.

The close escort is functionally a corvette with an emphasis on point defense and anti-small craft.

We even have a formal definition for close escort,being the following.
A close escort acts as a
‘goalkeeper’ for the target ship, firing at missiles and
small craft as they fly past.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:02 am

Sigtrygg wrote: Does every country here in the real world manufacture:
...
stealth fighters
...
Does the knowledge base exits to do these things?
Could they if they were willing to spend the money on building the infrastructure?
Take Denmark, Australia, or at a guess Iowa:
Are they the same TL as the rest of the world? Yes.
Do they specialise in aerospace industry? No.
Do they make their own stealth fighters? No.
Could they, given enough time and money? Of course.


There is as far as I know only one common tech base on Earth today. All factories that are built all over the world use the same components and overall technological level. All cars made all over the world are the same tech level.
Example:
Image
Onyx Connect mobile phone factory in South Africa. https://kopitiambot.com/tag/onyx-connect/

This does of course not mean that every city have their own semiconductor fab.

I generally use the original definition:
LBB3'81, p8 wrote:The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.
Tech level means what is actually used, so e.g. a base in Antarctica is the same TL as any other part of Earth, despite lacking industrial capacity. In the same way a low-pop outpost in the 3I probably lacks industrial capacity, but has a TL.

If all worlds in the Imperium were flooded with TL-15 gadgetry, then all worlds would be TL-15, especially after millennia of Imperial trade. They are not. Hence I assume the flood of hitech gadgetry is limited.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:26 am

Sigtrygg wrote: The Gazelle isn't a warship:
Hundreds of Gazelle class close escorts have been built and many remain in service in the Imperial Navy, despite the fact that in a combat situation, they are nearly worthless. The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship.
Sigtrygg is of course correct, and has provided the quote to prove it.

The Gazelle-class is useless in naval combat, but might be used to intimidate civilians.

phavoc wrote: One issue with the Gazelle is that it was designed under CT rules, when the largest possible ship was 5k dtons. Hg later introduced far larger warships, thus the labels and sizes are skewed.
The Gazelle was designed from the ground up with CT HG, that did not have any such limitation. The 500 kDt Tigress is just as CT as the 100 Dt Scout.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Reynard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:34 pm

The Third Imperium: Sector Fleet gives me the feeling you have the Imperial Fleets, which feature the core of ships tasked with major warfighting and therefore often consist of the best construction, and the Colonial fleets which are built locally and owned and operated by local systems. These are the majority of ships in a subsector filling many roles and can be consolidated into numbered subsector or named sector fleets reinforcing regular navy assets in times of war. The majority of ships will be at lower tech level Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction based on the shipyards available while the high tech level warships are built at shipyard specifically designed for them which would be far rarer especially since you're not building anywhere near the tonnage. High tech warships rely on Imperial naval bases and depots for their repair and maintenance.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby phavoc » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:26 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:26 am
Sigtrygg wrote: The Gazelle isn't a warship:
Hundreds of Gazelle class close escorts have been built and many remain in service in the Imperial Navy, despite the fact that in a combat situation, they are nearly worthless. The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship.
Sigtrygg is of course correct, and has provided the quote to prove it.

The Gazelle-class is useless in naval combat, but might be used to intimidate civilians.
phavoc wrote: One issue with the Gazelle is that it was designed under CT rules, when the largest possible ship was 5k dtons. Hg later introduced far larger warships, thus the labels and sizes are skewed.
The Gazelle was designed from the ground up with CT HG, that did not have any such limitation. The 500 kDt Tigress is just as CT as the 100 Dt Scout.
I went back to JTAS#4, where the Gazelle was first published. According to the original write-up: GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS - Naval tactics in the Imperial Navy call for large ships to be accompanied by well-armed, small fighting craft capable of engaging the enemy at long range, before they approach the principle ships in a task force or convoy. These small ships may be fighter craft carried by the larger ships, or they may be independent close escort vessels. Thousands of close escorts have been built in the past several centuries, and hundreds have been built in the Gazelle Class. The original quote comes from supplement 9, Fighting Ships. I suppose it's fair to say that supplement 9 would overwrite the original article.

The quite about them being nearly worthless does not exist in the original. The published date for JTAS4 is 1980. The specifications for the ship statistics are only at the high level. It's also listed in Traders & Gunboats, supplement 7, which also was published in 1980. AnotherDilbert points out a valid statement - HG was available at the time. The original JTAS writeup cites Book 2 and HG, so I guess I was remembering the first part and forgot about the latter. Though the Gazelle has remained a broken design since it doesn't follow the original design rules. In the introduction of supplement 7, it says "The original design of the close escort is by Frank Chadwick. A substantially different version of the close escort originally appeared in the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, Issue No. 4." So by that we know the two designs have changed in a very short period.

During my poking around I re-read the original descriptions for the close escort. Here is what the book says: Armed starships which police the space between worlds are a necessary part of
interstellar civilization. These gunboats protect both the ships and the many different worlds they visit.
PATROLLING THE STARLANES
With high levels of trade between the stars, both the ships and the worlds they call on become vulnerable to a variety of ills. Merchants become the prey of pirates and corsairs. Worlds become the prey of smugglers and raiders. Huge warships built for fleet actions are nearly useless in this sort of situation, and special ships - gunboats - are designed and committed to the everyday patrols of the starlanes.
THE CLOSE ESCORT
To protect ships from the menace of pirate activity, stellar governments may require flights in convoys with armed escorts, or they may establish routine patrols in troubled areas in the hope of catching corsairs in the act. In either case, the close escort is an ideal small ship for the protection of merchant traffic. Originatly, the close escort was designed and produced by the lmperium for
fleet operations. The small, fast close escorts were committed as the flank screens for cruisers or small fleet task forces. Their speed and size also made them ideal for naval courier and personnel transfer duties. But ultimately, they found their true niche. Many close escorts have been assigned to specific star systems or groups of systems for commerce protection.


Notice that close escort is a role. If we go back to the higher level labels for ships, a spaceship is one that cannot travel between stars (e.g. no jump drive), but is not size limited. A starship is one that can travel between stars. And a warship is a ship (either space or star-ship) that is designed for war. By these definitions a Gazelle is a warship with the role of close escort. Supplemetn 9, Fighting Ships, says of escorts - "Escorts: Escorts are small ships of up to 5000 tons, and are meant to be light support craft for larger ships, primarily cruisers. Escorts are also widely used for convoy protection and commerce raiding roles." So the Gazelle class does fall within that category of warship as well.

TL;DR - Gazelle was built using SOME design system, maybe even Traveller related! But it's still a warship (my opinion) with the role of close escort. It won't survive long against larger warships but will do fine against pirates and life in a 5k dton universe.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:55 pm

In the CT pre High Guard retcon OTU the Gazelle was a close escort and a useful warship, but then the Kinunir was a state of the art TL15 battle cruiser.

The shift of the OTU to a big ship High Guard universe invalidates the Gazelle design as a close escort and the Kinunir as a battle cruiser, and thus reduces the Gazelle to coast guard cutter status.

As to the original design of the Gazelle it mixes elements from LBB2, HG79 and HG80 and adds some stuff which doesn't show up anywhere (treat a PA as a heavy laser - ok, what are the CT stats for a heavy laser?)
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:07 pm

phavoc wrote: I went back to JTAS#4, where the Gazelle was first published. According to the original write-up: GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS - Naval tactics in the Imperial Navy call for large ships to be accompanied by well-armed, small fighting craft capable of engaging the enemy at long range, ...

The quite about them being nearly worthless does not exist in the original.
Quite, the HG'79 original version in JTAS#4 was almost a reasonable warship.

The later HG'80 version (HG'80, p50) was degraded to irrelevance.

MgT2 copied the degraded HG'80 version.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Moppy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:55 pm
In the CT pre High Guard retcon OTU the Gazelle was a close escort and a useful warship, but then the Kinunir was a state of the art TL15 battle cruiser.

The shift of the OTU to a big ship High Guard universe invalidates the Gazelle design as a close escort and the Kinunir as a battle cruiser, and thus reduces the Gazelle to coast guard cutter status.

As to the original design of the Gazelle it mixes elements from LBB2, HG79 and HG80 and adds some stuff which doesn't show up anywhere (treat a PA as a heavy laser - ok, what are the CT stats for a heavy laser?)
If 1980 kinuinir was designed as a CT warship, she would have J4 and 6G.

The 1980 Kinunir's role is something like what a Lafayette is used for today. It sits off the coast with marines and a helicopter and encourages the rebellious colony to behave. If special forces are onboard, some local dissident leaders may also mysteriously disappear (not saying that France ever did anything that, especially not in North or East Africa). Kinunirs are called "colonial cruiser" for a reason.

On the assumption that pirates used free traders for their work, the gazelle is an OK close escort for peacetime. Consider a gazelle similar to what the mercenaries are using to protect ships today from pirates off the horn of Africa. Gazelle can also do basic customs inspection & rescue pretty well. The gazelle is too slow for independent pirate hunting or catching smugglers with high-thrust ships. The best thing they could do there is give it a couple of light fighters.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:16 pm

Moppy wrote: If 1980 kinuinir was designed as a CT warship, she would have J4 and 6G.
That standard was yet to be defined.

To make a usable warship it would need:
A big fat computer (m/9)
A weapon that can actually hurt another warship (missile bay)
Defences to make it survivable (Agility, Armour, Damper, Meson Screen)
Mobility (J-4 is nice)

Of course we can't fit all of that to such a small hull even at TL-15, but we can come close if we skip the screens.


The Kinunir as built, without either noticeable weapons or defences, is laughable as a warship. I agree it makes more sense as a marine transport.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:42 pm

In this instance, all that's relevant is whether the Gazelles are:

1. Designed and constructed for combat

2. Built below technological level fifteen, and

3. Still in production.

The Kinunirs are an odd sort of fish; at best I'd say that their ship designations were meant to mislead foreign intelligence agencies.

You have to keep in mind that technological level fifteen represents the cutting edge of Imperium technology, and that they're mostly facing opponents who just manage to build technology level fourteen vessels.
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Re: Repairs, Maintenance, and Construction

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:19 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:42 pm
In this instance, all that's relevant is whether the Gazelles are:

1. Designed and constructed for combat
They were retconned to not be
2. Built below technological level fifteen, and
old design still in use
3. Still in production.
megacorporations are allowed to own them for anti-piracy work
The Kinunirs are an odd sort of fish; at best I'd say that their ship designations were meant to mislead foreign intelligence agencies.
Nope, it was designed as a state of the art TL15 battle cruiser and the adventure library data shows it being employed as such.
You have to keep in mind that technological level fifteen represents the cutting edge of Imperium technology,
The Imperium has been solidly TL15 for over one hundred years by 1105. This is solidly TL15 for all aspects of culture and society. The Imperium was using TL15 stuff in their naval vessels as far back as the 700s.
and that they're mostly facing opponents who just manage to build technology level fourteen vessels.
The Zhodani have the odd TL15 world but have yet to rebuild their navy to TL15 standards, they have been TL14 for centuries. Similarly the Solomani ware equal in TL to the Imperium when they declared independence, so TL14 is standard for their naval construction.

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