Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

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enpeze2
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Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby enpeze2 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:06 am

after reading the new vehicle handbook I would like to ask if I understand this correctly? A dune buggy (TL6) has only 4 HP (hull 4) and armor 2. So any hit with a weapon causing 6+ damage will put it out of action? Or a vanguard fighter (page 78) has hull 5 and 9 armor, so any hit wit 14+ damage will destroy it? thanks for any clarification.
ochd
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby ochd » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:23 am

Hi enpeze2,

Yes, you have understood it correctly. It does mean that a good kick can put a dune buggy out of action :)

The newly released Traveller Companion (p. 104) has a couple of options for getting around that kind of unrealistic scenario -- and I assume Mongoose doesn't mind them being revealed here:

- weapons delivering <4D damage do no damage to vehicles, unless the effect of the attack is +6 or higher (and in that case the damage is still reduced by 2D to a minimum of 1)
- against man-portable weapons without the destructive trait, a vehicle has an extra amount of armour equal to its TL.

Dan.
enpeze2
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby enpeze2 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:48 pm

thank you very much for the info. Its quite dangerous to be a dune buggy or a WW2 fighter in nu traveller, it seems. :) Jokes aside, I think this problem is quite easy to adress by just give such vehicles more hull. (for example the dune buggy instead of 3 you could give it 15 or so)

Maybe the solution for this is to rule that most vehicles with only 3 hull or so are a misconstruction which easily break apart with each road irregularity or strong wind gust and thus are not sellable to the customer. Its like to market today on earth. If a car company wants to sell me a car made of a paperlike hull, I surely will not buy it even if its very cheap. The result is that such cars with 3 hull are simply not produced.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby Condottiere » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:49 pm

Cinematically, if the dune buggy is swiss cheesed, but fails to hit the stuff that allows it to continue to move, then it should continue to hold together and accelerate.

Or as has been described, flesh wounds.
NOLATrav
Banded Mongoose
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby NOLATrav » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:30 pm

I've gone back to the playtest era and re-instituted the Vehicle damage scale (at 5x Personal).

So Vehicles and Smallcraft divide damage from Personal scale weapons by 5, round to nearest. So hitting the Hull4, Armor2 dune buggy for 6 points actually does 6/5 = 1.2 = 1 less 2 Armor = no hit. You have to inflict at least 15 (!) points of damage (15 / 5 = 3 less 2 Armor = 1 hit).

Of course, if the dune buggy has a Vehicle-mount LMG, it does 5 x damage against you and your body armor...
Tupper
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby Tupper » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:11 am

I think the solutions in the Traveller Companion are fairly neat. I favour the first solution (designating 3D and lower damage as anti-personnel) since the second solution (bumping up armour) also nerfs "marginal" heavy weapons (for example, blowing up a car with a 4D rocket launcher is going to be a difficult proposition if the car has 10 armour and 12 hull points).

The combat system does have problems at the other end of the spectrum, unfortunately. In the vehicle handbook is a frigate, with 3500 spaces, which gives it 14000 hits. Ships can't have the AFV trait, so their armour is never going to get very big (unlike tanks and grav tanks), and torpedoes can do (if high enough TL) a pretty healthy 5DD damage ... but it's going to take a lot of torpedoes (80 or so) to put down a frigate at that rate.

I wished the traveller companion had addressed this end of the vehicle damage system. I had a few thoughts myself:

1. Allow for instant destruction by multiple criticals (similar to TNE). If a vehicle takes enough damage to warrant a critical, roll 3D; if this is less than or equal to the number of levels of criticals the ship will sustain from this hit, it's destroyed. Example: a ship is hit by a torpedo with effect 6+, causing 130 damage. This is equivalent to 13 levels of criticals, so on a roll of 13 or less, the ship is sunk.

2. Scale up the results of criticals. If a vehicle has more than 40 spaces (10 tonnes), scale up critical damage by 10. If it has more than 400 spaces, scale up critical damage by 100, if it has more than 4000 spaces, scale it up by 1000. Example: a frigate is hit by a torpedo, causing a level 6 hull critical. The critical rolls 21 on 6D, causing 2100 points of damage.

3. Rescale huge vehicles and treat them like spacecraft. The frigate in question has 3500 spaces (875 tonnes), so would take 0.4*875 = 350 hits on starship scale. Example: a frigate is hit by a torpedo with effect 6+, causing 18 damage and a level 2 critical. The critical is a level 2 hull hit, causing an extra 7 points of damage. If the frigate takes another 10 damage, it will be at 10% of its hull damage, generating another level 1 critical.
collins355
Stoat
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby collins355 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:01 am

The problem is that all these are bandaids on a gaping wound. People tried to point out the problems of the chosen system during playtesting and design. They were waved away - "people want cinematic combat" we were told. The hilarious 80+ torpedoes required to sink a lowly frigate is the result.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:22 am

collins355 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:01 am
The hilarious 80+ torpedoes required to sink a lowly frigate is the result.
You have an example of this?
enpeze2
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby enpeze2 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:09 am

does anyone know when the companion is released? thanks for any info.
ochd wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:23 am
Hi enpeze2,

Yes, you have understood it correctly. It does mean that a good kick can put a dune buggy out of action :)

The newly released Traveller Companion (p. 104) has a couple of options for getting around that kind of unrealistic scenario -- and I assume Mongoose doesn't mind them being revealed here:

- weapons delivering <4D damage do no damage to vehicles, unless the effect of the attack is +6 or higher (and in that case the damage is still reduced by 2D to a minimum of 1)
- against man-portable weapons without the destructive trait, a vehicle has an extra amount of armour equal to its TL.

Dan.
I am not sure if I like this very much. It seems quite complex to me as a patch. In my experience as a gm it is preferable to keep everything as simple as possible but of course without sacrificing flair. A little bit math (eg. laser do 10 damage minus 3 armor =7) is ok and manageable in the heat of a battle with a couple of vehicles, but too much calculating is not speedy and elegant enough. It becomes tedious for players and gm - especially if the combat scene should be fast and furious.

I guess I will stick just to the standard rules. My simple patch will be to give higher hull where it seems too low (like with the dune buggy) and lower hull where it seems to high (like the space frigate)
AndrewW
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby AndrewW » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:41 pm

enpeze2 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:09 am
does anyone know when the companion is released? thanks for any info.
Already released in PDF, March for print:
Old School
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby Old School » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:33 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:22 am
collins355 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:01 am
The hilarious 80+ torpedoes required to sink a lowly frigate is the result.
You have an example of this?
Why do you need an example of math?
Moppy
Greater Spotted Mongoose
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Re: Vehicle Handbook: question about Hull=HP

Postby Moppy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:53 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:22 am
collins355 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:01 am
The hilarious 80+ torpedoes required to sink a lowly frigate is the result.
You have an example of this?
I think he means the "Achilles frigate" in the vehicle book (the one that looks like a US Navy destroyer with the Mk 26 launcher). It has 14,000 hull. The largest maritime torpedo does 5dd, so it takes exactly 80 on average rolls.

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