Megafreighters

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Condottiere
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Condottiere » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:38 pm

Containerization is more of a time saving mechanism, in that a standard sized package is dropped off at an agreed upon point.

If you can't fill up a two thousand tonne module, the brokers could sell the remaining cargo space at a discount, until a week before shipment, at which point the selling price could be really premium or giveaway, depending on the remaining space and demand.
Reynard
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Reynard » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:46 pm

I spent some time converting the Superfreighter from High Guard 1e to High Guard 2e and it loses a lot. I tried to keep to the design as much as possible while keeping to what 2e demands. The jump engine is bigger as is the crew needed to run the ship. I tried to sacrifice the cargo capacity before anything else. The 2000 ton modules went from 25 down to 8 and the cargo hold dropped from 3563 to 1482 for a total of 19,563 compared to the original 53,563. That's a difference especially for a 100,00 ton vessel.


Problem is the Superfrieghter is pretty much a super-sized subsidized merchant with many of the same functions and capabilities. It's meant to travel beyond trade route mains considering its weapons and armories plus scoops and processors for gas giant skimming and integral shuttles rather than relying on port facilities. The modules allow for transporting a wide variety of both products and facilities as the module can be more than container and tanker units.

I envisioned my megafreighter similar to today's superfreighters being dedicated with port to port transportation of important trade facilities that then disperse goods along other secondary trade routes serviced by ships such as the superfreighter and smaller bulk freighters and merchants. That's why I stripped out as much as possible relying on the highports to defend and service these automated giants carrying cargo almost three times the size of a superfreighter itself at less that twice the construction cost.
Old School
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Old School » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:41 am

Someting’s wrong with your calculations. Ive done the same thing, and the biggest issue is the crew requirements. But even with 550 staterooms, 550 escape pods, and 550 dtons of common area, I’m still over 49,000 tons total cargo area.

There’s no way a freighter with M-1 annd J-4 engines but only J-3 fuel tanks would only have less than 20% of its space available for cargo.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:01 am

Quite, I get something like this:
100 kDt, GCr 20.7 in quantity.
J-4 (J-3 fuel), M-1.
Good sensors (very cheap).
50 assorted turrets.
240 crew, 250 staterooms.
Image

Just over 50 kDt cargo.

Note that I use reduced crew for large ships, as per HG p20.


Given a choice I would skip some shuttles and the turrets (replace with fixed missile racks for fewer gunners) saving about 1000 Dt and a few hundred MCr.
baithammer
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby baithammer » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:10 am

A freighter, even if super wouldn't be TL15 as its still a commercial ship so TL13 if only for the Jump 4 drive.
Sigtrygg
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:36 am

The large merchantmen in The Traveller Adventure are all TL15...

in a similar way nearly all the civilian shipping operating in the core sectors of the Imperium as detailed in MegaTraveller is TL15.

The 3I has had TL15 stuff since the 700s (AotI), it has been TL15 for civilian infrastructure since 1000
baithammer
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby baithammer » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:20 am

Which doesn't mean much when MGT 2ed has civilian TL at 12, TL 13 for System ships and TL 15 for Military.
Sigtrygg
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:28 am

The Third Imperium setting disagrees with the MgT split. It's the difference between the setting as described and the rules which need adapting to describe the setting.
baithammer
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby baithammer » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:31 am

The base rules inform changes needed to the setting, otherwise there is no base for everything to work off of.
Linwood
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Linwood » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:32 am

I see you’re also using demountable tanks for fuel. So on a Jump-1 only route you’d gain another 20kdton.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:06 pm

baithammer wrote: A freighter, even if super wouldn't be TL15 as its still a commercial ship so TL13 if only for the Jump 4 drive.
Depends on the local infrastructure. If there are plentiful TL15 shipyards around, TL-15 ships can be slightly more effective (power plant).

It's only TL15 because I misinterpreted the Advanced sensors of the original, it should translate into Improved in MgT2, and hence not require TL15...
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:07 pm

baithammer wrote: Which doesn't mean much when MGT 2ed has civilian TL at 12, TL 13 for System ships and TL 15 for Military.
I'm not aware of any such rule or limitation. I believe you are free to design ship to any TL you like.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:09 pm

Linwood wrote: I see you’re also using demountable tanks for fuel. So on a Jump-1 only route you’d gain another 20kdton.
Quite. It's so cheap it's basically free and it allows flexibility, win-win!
baithammer
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby baithammer » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:52 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:07 pm
baithammer wrote: Which doesn't mean much when MGT 2ed has civilian TL at 12, TL 13 for System ships and TL 15 for Military.
I'm not aware of any such rule or limitation. I believe you are free to design ship to any TL you like.
Based on the designs that are presented, most civilian ships are at TL 12, most of the system defense ships are at TL 13 and Third Imperium are pretty much all TL 15.
but most core
worlds range between 10 and 13.
Is presented in the Mgt 2ed Main Book, which would indicate that range for the majority of yards.
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Moppy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:21 pm

baithammer wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:52 pm
but most core
worlds range between 10 and 13.
Is presented in the Mgt 2ed Main Book, which would indicate that range for the majority of yards.
Corporation mega freighters are probably built in some giant far-off shipyard at the most efficient TL.

The exception I can think of might be a company like GeDoCo whose mission is long term economic development of/beyond the frontier, and they might build ships locally to create jobs/tech base.

Inside the Imperium they may regard TL 15 civilian ships with suspicion, like they do civilian ships with Jump 5+.
Reynard
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Reynard » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:12 pm

I don't know why so many people impose TL 15 technology on all ship designs especially civilian and commercial craft. When I design a ship, I include the TL of each system and the highest TL is the listed TL of the ship though that might be just one item out of the entire design. I design what seems reasonable and logical for the ship's purpose and function. I don't slap on an Advanced Sensor when a freighter can do just fine with a Civilian grade.

Except for the top military organizations, most concerns consider reducing costs more important than fancy chrome. TL 15 in the Imperium is the standard of the military elite with access to taxpayer money while the majority of the empire is no where near that advanced. Most systems average around 12-13 and a sizable proportion less than that so ship construction and part availability should reflect that. If nothing else, shipyards in systems that are not resource and cash rich will not be building the finest quality at premium prices explaining most iconic ships of the civilian and commercial classes. They're built to get the job done a bargain prices. The Megafreighter I made is rated TL 12 even though it will be used mostly between systems of Importance with higher TLs. The systems on board are just enough to perform efficiently at lower construction cost which also mean lower maintenance costs. Realistically, parts can be found locally instead of relying on higher tech worlds that are scarcer and at greater distances.
Moppy
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Moppy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:50 pm

Reynard wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:12 pm
I don't know why so many people impose TL 15 technology on all ship designs especially civilian and commercial craft.

Except for the top military organizations, most concerns consider reducing costs more important than fancy chrome. TL 15 in the Imperium is the standard of the military elite with access to taxpayer money while the majority of the empire is no where near that advanced.
Military tech isn't necessarily always ahead of civilian. In certain aspects like weapons, armor and sensors, it is, but in mostly everything else, it's a generation behind and optimised for durability instead of efficiency.

Take the humvee. Automotively, it's 20 years behind a modern truck. The F-22's computer is weaker than an iphone.

Almost all of the new modern wheeled IFVs use civilian truck & bus automotive components and powerpacks, and they obtain more engine power by being able to ignore environmental restrictions or requiring more frequent maintenance than a commercial product. Then they stay in service for 30 years, long after the civilian trucks have been replaced with ever more fuel efficient ones.

A new container ship today, operated by a big line, is extremely efficient and replaced frequently to keep it that way (they may be leased instead of bought, and passed on when no longer efficient to operate).

edit: Maerk's container ship fleet has an average age of less than 9 years. https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/ ... t-is-here/

Now I know Trav hasn't increased TL in thousands of years, but if you want to make money out of cargo shipping, you're going to care a lot about the efficiency of your ships and if that means higher TL for smaller parts, that's what will happen.
Sigtrygg
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:31 pm

The Imperium has been solidly TL15 for civilian infrastructure for over 100 years by the 1105 start date.

Megacorporations, sector wide and subsector wide TL15 merchant ships ply the trade lanes of even backwater frontier subsectors (see Traveller Adventure), while in the Imperial core sectors drop tank equipped merchantmen, jump 6 x-boats and even TL15 type A free traders are common (see TAS news, standard MT ship designs).

If you want to say the MgT Third Imperium is an alternate universe where different standards apply then you are free to do so, personally if it for the Third Imperium setting it should conform to the canon as it already exists; unless there is a very good reason to change it I will stick with established canon. It is high time for the MgT Third Imperium sourcebook to clarify such things.
Condottiere
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Condottiere » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:45 pm

Companies order megafreighters on expected return on investment.

Regimes might subsidize construction as part of macroeconomics. Or if lobbyists bribe them to do so.
Old School
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Re: Megafreighters

Postby Old School » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:13 pm

Why would earth’s current container volume need to be replicated by interstellar frieght? A planet like earth with abundant natural resources isn’t going to import much raw materials. Most likely its imports would be basic manufactured goods as a wealthy population moves away from basic manufacturing jobs (and the pollution that often comes with). This would be a portion of current freight level but certainly not all. We also ship our resources all over the planet, which we likely wouldn't replicate in space. Could you really see a high population, wealthy planet agreeing to strip itself of non renewable resources for export? We would be importing what resources we need from some hellhole without much in the way of population (kinda like we do now, just farther away). And the ubiqitous free power of traveller tech eliminates much freight by itself.

In short, our current freight levels have very little bearing on what our interstellar freight levels would be.

What would drive huge freight volumes are high population planets without abundant resources. That brings up a whole ‘nother ball of wax. . .the concept that inhospitable planets build huge, unsustainable populations, while garden worlds two parsecs away have a few million residents.

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