Space Combat Hit Location.

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:45 pm

I rather liked the TNE "Body Sleeve": The standard shipboard uniform was a soft overall that provided basic fire/ballistic protection and could be used as an emergency vacc suit for a few minutes. It formed the temperature regulating inner layer when a vacc suit or armour was worn.
phavoc
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:13 pm

paltrysum wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:41 pm
phavoc wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:12 pm
Magical fibers aside, it's got to provide a modicum of protection against space environment, not just a vacuum. And, above all, it's clothes you wear all the time, ergo it needs to be comfortable and practical. When you add all these things together it makes it quite improbable.

Which it's why it's just plain easier to drop the notion your uniform is a spacesuit.
Good argument. I prefer it your way quite frankly.
Ironic coming from me, isn't it? I don't mind complexity or detail when it makes sense. This is one where I don't think it makes much sense.
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:45 pm
I rather liked the TNE "Body Sleeve": The standard shipboard uniform was a soft overall that provided basic fire/ballistic protection and could be used as an emergency vacc suit for a few minutes. It formed the temperature regulating inner layer when a vacc suit or armour was worn.
Now something that provides a little bit of protection, mostly atmosphere, for a few minutes is ok. Though as a former soldier I've got to wonder just how comfortable wearing an emergency vacc suit all day long would be. We used to have MOPP gear days, wearing the full suit, boots and gas mask, walking around the base so we could get used to being prepared for NBC in case the balloon went up. Form-fitting suits like that have GOT to be more comfy than fatigues and then charcoal pajamas.

I am still a fan of simplicity and making things seem how people would do them in real life. Back in the D&D days I had my characters always swearing they'd be happy to walk around the towns and villages in their armor because, yanno, they might get jumped. Suffice it to say none of them had been soldiers, so they didn't quite understand the mind or comfort level of a soldier. And none of them were women, so I could have tossed out "so you wear your 5" stilleto's 28hrs a day, eh?". Women seem to get that argument better than men. I wonder why? :shock:
Old School
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Old School » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:25 pm

CSC has the same thing - referred to as the "pressure sleeve" on page 24. Indefinite use in very thin atmosphere, 15 minutes in trace, 5 minutes in full vacuum. That last bit seems far fetched. It's also described as being similar to a wetsuit. Wearing a wetsuit in dry condition as at room temperature will lead to overheating in short order. Seems like something that might make sense for very thin atmospheres, but not as an emergency suit under one's uniform.

I don't actually remember reading anywhere that a vacc suit would double as a uniform for shipboard operations.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:31 pm

Old School wrote: CSC has the same thing - referred to as the "pressure sleeve" on page 24.
Yes, almost: The Pressure Sleeve is much more limited.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:38 pm

phavoc wrote: Now something that provides a little bit of protection, mostly atmosphere, for a few minutes is ok. Though as a former soldier I've got to wonder just how comfortable wearing an emergency vacc suit all day long would be.
It's basically the soft romper suit worn under real vacc suits/combat armour/battledress. Comfort is the point.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Moppy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:55 pm

For what it's worth (this being a different edition), I found the "vacc suit is uniform" reference.

In JTAS 9 they describe vaccsuits very similar to modern space suits with air tanks and tubes you connect for waste and those can't be worn all day.

In JTAS 23 they describe a special type of TL14+ vacc suit.

It's all soft components, inflatable helmet rolling into the collar. In my words, it's a "tracksuit with hood". This suit lacks sanitary couplings being designed for long term wear and therefore has "space zips" (I can't think of a better word) like regular pants. The suit only lasts 6 hours sealed, does not protect against high external pressure (the helmet would suffocate you) and isn't armored, but can self-seal.

It's clearly not designed for heavy duty EVA work, but more as a duty uniform with emergency life-saving, or the convenience to pop outside for 5 minutes to perform a trivial repair.

As for radiation protection, old Traveller doesn't understand radiation. They can fuel scoop in a gas giant but 1 tiny missile radiates a ship to death.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:41 pm

I believe there are some references to scout service uniforms functioning as vacc suits?

If they’re intended as “full” vacc suits or more like fancy emergency, I don’t know.

The Element cruiser book has two suits for naval personnel, one is a naval issue vacc suit, a TL14 vacc suit. The other is a shipboard working dress, basically a tough work uniform with limited vacc capabilities. Day-to-day uniform with some protection and a pinch of emergency vacc suit.

Judging by the artwork, the naval TL14 vacc suit is more robust than the one mentioned by Moppy above, but it only weighs 6 kg so perhaps some components can be swapped (like the helmet).

The working dress does have a soft helmet rolled into its collar.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Condottiere » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:45 pm

You need a jumpsuit that is vacuum proof, with a liner that controls temperature.

Image
phavoc
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:30 pm

The technical problem with clothes as space suits is (a) where is the extra oxygen coming from, and (b) where is the apparatus that filters the air you breathe? Filtration through some sort of system to break down the CO2 from your exhalation will require power.

Since we are talking sci-fi, where is the science part of the fiction? Sure, I can imagine tech for anti-gravity, and jump drives, and hey, let's even go with space suits as really comfortable track suits. But we are missing a bunch of the science part here.

Which is why clothes = clothes and space suits = space suits. Even a temporary space suit requires all the functioning parts of a suit. So far all the examples don't meet the minimum requirements. Unless the tech is going to be there that powers the suit from the body and everything is nannite-based. But if that's the case, why does it cost 3k Cr for life support??? There are logical holes to the connections between the dots here.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:34 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:45 pm
You need a jumpsuit that is vacuum proof, with a liner that controls temperature.

Image
The stillsuits from Dune made sense. But I bet they were hot... desert and high temps while wearing a suit that captures fluid loss. They had a nose piece but would have needed a hood and further encapsulation as you can lose a lot of water through head sweat.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Moppy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:38 pm

JTAS 23 says that body heat/movement provides 20% of the suit's power and the rest is batteries. A half kilo (1 lb) for oxygen tank, and another half kilo for said batteries. Cooling operates for 10 hours out of every 12, the batteries recharging during the other 2. There is an electrical CO2 scrubber and a cooling system/heat exchanger is built into the suit. The suit requires maintenance after 100 hours of wear.

This was of course written before wireless charging fields were a thing.

It (the suit) is less magic than the jump engine, and it's TL 14 not 9.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:48 pm

Moppy wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:38 pm
JTAS 23 says that body heat/movement provides 20% of the suit's power and the rest is batteries. A half kilo (1 lb) for oxygen tank, and another half kilo for said batteries. Cooling operates for 10 hours out of every 12, the batteries recharging during the other 2. There is an electrical CO2 scrubber and a cooling system/heat exchanger is built into the suit. The suit requires maintenance after 100 hours of wear.

This was of course written before wireless charging fields were a thing.

It (the suit) is less magic than the jump engine, and it's TL 14 not 9.
Aye, and before concepts such as vacuoles to store oxygen and carbon fiber nanotubes for electricity. But let's use Star Trek as an example. Quite technologically advanced, but where would Deanna put all that on her uniforms??? :)

Less humorously, it all sounds well and good, if they seem to be stretching some of the tech here and not elsewhere. How many of us get our of our uncomfortable work clothes when we get home? To me it just doesn't pass the sniff test. And really, it's both not needed and having separate space suits makes PC's less likely to try and do some silly stunt like a micro-bomb to depressurize the compartment and it's only THEM who were smart enough to wear their uniform space suits (with sealed micro booties, hidden gloves and a hoody that is vacuum proof - see where the silliness is starting to show?).

Not saying you coudn't get a better suit that would allow people to work in it, but it would be a separate suit, complete with helmet and gloves and the necessary space potty plumbing hookup.

Point of trivia - did you know the girdle manufacturer playtex was involved in the first US space suits? Seems the NASA boys couldn't figure out how to get elasticity and control built into the suits. Took some ladies who wore and made girdles to teach them about it. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... r-3652414/
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Condottiere » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:58 pm

Image

Hoody spacesuit, insteady of a helmet.
Moppy
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Moppy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:09 pm

phavoc wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:48 pm
Point of trivia - did you know the girdle manufacturer playtex was involved in the first US space suits? Seems the NASA boys couldn't figure out how to get elasticity and control built into the suits. Took some ladies who wore and made girdles to teach them about it. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... r-3652414/
"The NASA boys" isn't a phrase I would use. NASA has always employed a lot of female engineers, even if the climate at the time encouraged them to not disclose this information. I don't know anything about the other company.
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Rerednaw » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:48 pm

So some folks use hull hits, others roll again.
There wasn’t official errata or FAQ on this?
Thanks!
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:57 pm

Rerednaw wrote: There wasn’t official errata or FAQ on this?
No errata needed; the rules are clear:
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:53 am
Core, p158 wrote: If a critical hit has been inflicted upon a spacecraft, roll 2D and then consult the Critical Hits Location table. If a particular location does not apply to this spacecraft, roll again.

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