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Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:19 am
by Sigtrygg
Canonically the x-boat routes were established by being built along existing trade lanes, so the 4pc trade lanes existed before the x-boat network and carries trade goods etc not just information.
The Traveller Adventure does a pretty good job showing how there can be other trade routes with a subsector that do not follow the x-boat route, but the fact remains that the x-boat network was built on top of pre-existing trade lanes.
Selected locations along major trade routes are established as express stations
Xboat links are represented by grey lines showing the established communications routes. Generally, these routes are also the major freight and passenger carrying lines.
Since GT is now to be considered OTU canon according to the powers that be then the LASH freighter is the typical bulk transport, and trade routes as well as x-boat routes, can be generated for every world.

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:47 pm
by Reynard
Communication and trade routes would naturally follow links between the most important systems similar to major highways between cities. Those worlds become hubs for the region surrounding them creating secondary routes that don't need the same expensive infrastructure to move data and products as efficiently.

We see the various editions of Traveller try to explain who gets the major trade and Xboat routes. At it's basic, it's between A and sometimes B starports with lower class ports as links to major ports. T5 describes it, as many other have, as connection between Important worlds of J-4 or less then has a formula using starport, tech level, population, bases and trade codes to determine importance. Suddenly the whys of routes are clearer.

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:18 pm
by Condottiere
I think the Dungeon Master just has to use his best judgement deciding how this works in his campaign.

There are push and pull factors creating trade routes.

Then you have natural nodes and hubs, where trade routes intersect, or are entrepôts for their hinterlands.

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:32 pm
by steve98052
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:19 am
. . .
The TL-12 ship is now clearly cheaper to operate, so slightly more profitable.
Thanks for running the numbers. I should get on my computer so I can read the examples.
Note that this exchange mechanism from TCS has been specifically de-canonised as far as I know.
I haven't seen that, but I'm not too surprised; it's a pretty ancient rule set. Where was it de-canonized?
Far Trader seems to use a very different mechanism where hi-tech factories and yards can build lower tech items much more cheaply. The J-3 drive in a TL-15 ship would cost next to nothing and the TL-15 ship would be much cheaper.
That's interesting; I'll have to take another look at its numbers. Does that include the translation between GURPS and regular Traveller technology levels?

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:30 pm
by AnotherDilbert
steve98052 wrote: I haven't seen that, but I'm not too surprised; it's a pretty ancient rule set. Where was it de-canonized?
I was told on CotI:
aramis wrote: During T4, Marc made it clear in the writer's notes that TCS was canonical for ship design materials, but not for budgets. During T4, PE came out and superseded that portion anyway.

During T20, Hunter was clear that Marc had forbidden including those econ tables from Striker & TCS.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discus ... post538942

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:55 pm
by AnotherDilbert
steve98052 wrote: That's interesting; I'll have to take another look at its numbers. Does that include the translation between GURPS and regular Traveller technology levels?
Price is decreased by 50% per GURPS TL. Since there are more Traveller TLs it might be 33% per Traveller TL?

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:04 am
by Condottiere
Maybe you can try out the Tee Five system, though I suspect it could do with some simplification.

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:25 pm
by steve98052
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:55 pm
steve98052 wrote: That's interesting; I'll have to take another look at its numbers. Does that include the translation between GURPS and regular Traveller technology levels?
Price is decreased by 50% per GURPS TL. Since there are more Traveller TLs it might be 33% per Traveller TL?
As I remember the GURPS scale, one TL difference cuts the production cost in half, a second TL cuts it in half again, but after that the price doesn't continue dropping. The trade value doesn't follow the same scale; each TL adjusts the value by a ratio of 3:2, except for the top end of the scale, where it's 2:1, because top TL worlds are the only source for top TL products.

Because the GURPS and regular Traveller scales don't follow equal steps, the 33% rule wouldn't give matching results. Here's a chart of levels that matter for space vehicles, regular Traveller left, jump in parentheses:
8 = 8 (no)
9, 10, 11 = 9 (possible, routine, Junp-1)
12, 13 = 10 (Jump-3, Jump-4)
14 = 11 (Jump-5)
15 = 12 (Jump-6)
To make the scales match, one could split GURPS TL9 into early, middle, and late, and TL10 into early and late.

To convert the early, middle, and late partial levels seems to work best if they are calculated as fractional levels. Since half levels make the math smoother, TL9 could be split into 8.5, 9.0, and 9.5, and TL10 into 10.0 and 10.5 -- half steps from 8 through 11.

The production cost rule of 100%, 50%, 25%, stable, split into half levels, works out to 100%, 71%, 50%, 35%, 25%, stable.

The trade value rules of 3:2 doesn't split into half levels as a small number ratio, but it's not too far from 5:4, so that could be used for the final half levels after using the 3:2 ratio for whole levels. Since the top two levels are a full step, there's no need to split the 2:1 ratio between them.

Having two separate scales, for production costs and trade vales, is a complication, but how big a complication depends on what you're trying to use the rules for. I suppose the main purpose would be to price out a fleet (merchant or combatant) of ships built at an assortment of levels.

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:05 am
by AnotherDilbert
You have obviously looked closer at GT Far Trader than I have, I have only ever looked at the trade volumes.

Re: fuel-cargo hybrid space

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:09 pm
by steve98052
So it seems. I had forgotten the 50% rule you mentioned, but it came back when you did. At least one of the three authors is an economist in his day job, so I think it's an economically sound book, to the extent that one can reasonably apply economics to a fictional economy.