[Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

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[Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Bardicheart » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:00 am

First some context.

While reading over the Deneb Sector several things caught my attention and got my imagination going. That started with the Civil War of 600 to 629 and the Bad War that was part of it from 613 to 628. Another aspect was the ongoing feuds, rivalries and private wars of not only the various sub-sector Dukes, but all the other nobles as well. It came across as a sector rife with political intrigue, shifting alliances, and small wars that reminded me a bit of Dune, BattleTech, Fading Suns, and other fictional settings... all of which I love. Finally there were the small fleets, the huscarle fleets, which were composed of ships of 2,000 dT or smaller. These fleets were the private navies of these various nobles and used to wage their private wars against each other. Throw in various merc companies hiring out to round out the huscarle fleets and it struck me as a very interesting setting that fired my imagination.

That set me to imagining a story arc. The Rheinhardt's. An old Solamanni family who came to the Deneb Sector in the early days, they were an ally of the Humbolts. Once they were a great power, commanding a real fleet with real capital ships. Then came the Civil War which became the Bad War. What began as a fight between noble houses turned into a rebellion against the Imperium itself and a desperate battle against the Imperial Navy. A battle they were doomed to lose. In the latter days of the war, battered and beaten, they surrendered. The Humbolts fought on. As part of their terms of surrender the Rheinhardts, like all Deneb nobles gave up their capital ships and were banned from ever owning a warship massing more than 2000 dT. They were stripped of all political administrative offices. They were allowed to keep their titles, which remained hereditary, and their private estates; they would remain vastly wealthy. But they were no more a power which had once shaken worlds. They went into a slow decline, helped along by a never ending struggle against rival noble houses, old hatreds, trade wars, and just plain bad luck. By the early 900's they were nearly bankrupt. But then Hansen Rheinhardt assumed the mantle of Count and patriarch of the family. Count Hansen aggressively sought out new trade deals and pushed back economically. He invested in research and education, turning House Rheinhardt into leaders in technological research, developing new patents. Slowly, the tide turned and the fortunes of House Rheinhardt were again on the rise. Count Hansen's great grandson, Karl Rheinhardt, was the product of his great-grandfather's ambition. Highly educated, intelligent, ambitious and gifted in the field of ship architecture he not only continued Count Hansen's policies, but he significantly expanded the family's holdings. So much so they could afford to truly rebuild their huscarle fleet, the last step in reclaiming their place among both the stars and their rival noble houses. To that end, Count Karl Rheinhardt spent years designing what would be the flagship of their huscarle fleet, the Voshtar, named after a bird of prey he once encountered on another world. The Voshtar would be a 2000 dT huscarle cruiser, built to the highest standards with the best materials, she would be a ship like no other in her class.

Years in the design, the Voshtar was built at the Vincennes naval yard. Shipyard workers quickly came to hate her, or more precisely the Count who demanded perfection. But that hatred didn't last. Karl wasn't a noble fop, he was an engineer at heart and became a daily presence at the shipyard personally overseeing every aspect of her construction. Yard workers would find themselves next to a noble in tailored clothes, sleeves rolled up, smudged with grease, working right along side them as he checked and re-checked ever detail. Resentment turned to surprise and eventually respect, he worked hard, as hard or harder than anyone else and asked nothing he was not willing to do himself. His pride in his ship was clearly evident, and infectious, it spread. Soon those same yard workers were taking nearly as much pride in the Voshtar as the Count himself. The result was undeniable, she was something special. With cost overruns and delays it took over two years to finish her, but the end result was a ship of graceful lines and high quality, there was nothing else quite like her. As she was released from her mooring and glided out of the shipyard on her maiden voyage, every single worker lined up to send her off. She moved like a thing born to the stars, effortless, agile, humming with restrained power. Her escorts came alongside and with Count Rheinhardt on the bridge she made for the 100 diameter limit. The Rheinhardt's were back.

It wasn't to be, there were other powers, those who would not tolerate this triumphant ascension. Jump points opened and a combined fleet of two rival families, House Ermingard and House Farhadi entered the system dangerously close to both the Voshtar and the shipyard. The opened fire without warning, engaging the Voshtar and her escorts. The Farhadi had always favored missiles while the Ermingard's had always preferred heavy close range weapons. While the Ermingard's moved to close the Farhadi fleet launched swarms of missiles and kept their distance. The Voshtar and her escorts found themselves fighting both a brawling sluggfest with the Ermingard ships while fending off volley after volley of missiles from the Farhadi fleet. The technical advantage and brilliant designwork of Count Rheinhardt showed its worth, the Ermingard's found it difficult for many of their weapons to penetrate the heavily armored hull of the Voshtar while her advanced point defense and electronic warfare capabilities kept the missile swarms at bay. Both sides were taking heavy losses, the Voshtar's escorts were being steadily reduced and the Ermingard fleet was likewise being demolished one by one under the concentrated fire of the Voshtar. What had seemed almost hopeless turned into a sliver of hope, if the Voshtar and her remain escorts could finish what was left of the Ermingard fleet, and if the Farhadi ran out of missiles, they could win the engagement. It was then a third set of jump points opened and more ships emerged, this time a fleet from House Harada. House Harada had long been allies of the Rheinhardt's, and were known for their intense devotion to honor like their ancient samurai ancestors. Any such hope was shattered when the Harada fleet opened fire on the Voshtar, Harada had betrayed them. No doubt realizing it was hopeless the Voshtar broke away from her escorts, she was a fast ship with powerful drives. But she didn't run, she plowed headlong into her enemies. Her surviving escorts, battered and heavily damaged were ordered to retreat and escape. The Voshtar set a direct course for the Harada flagship, her intent clear, she would ram the betrayers and take them with her. If anger and fury could be poured into a ships guns as fuel, that day they were. The Voshtar was a tough ship, but the cumulative damage had taken its toll and her point defenses began to fail. More and more of the Farhadi missiles began to get through and combined with the focused fire of the entire Harada fleet, her hull began to buckle from multiple breeches. In the end her drives failed, she was adrift and losing power, struggling to reach her hated foe. But it was not to be.

There is still debate regarding what happened next. The Voshtar exploded in a blinding flash, utterly destroyed. The Ermingard and Farhadi claimed it was they who destroyed her, but others disagree. Some point to the Voshtar's design, she had ample escape capsules and ship procedure was to ready both her pinnaces for launch anytime the Voshtar went to alert status. At least some of the crew should have been able to escape, but not a single craft or pod was launched. They suggest that rather than surrender, rather than allow the Voshtar to be taken as a prize, the crew chose to die with their ship and rigged her to self destruct.

In the aftermath, House Rheinhardt never recovered. By the time 11 yr old Viktor Rheinhardt became Count Rheinhardt the family fortune was all but gone, most of its estates sold or seized, its patents stolen in legal disputes. His inheritance consisted of a fraction of its former wealth and a data crystal containing the complete ship schematics for the Voshtar, his grandfather's broken dream. Quietly, and without announcement Count Viktor Rheinhardt sold the remaining family assets, took a last remaining ship and disappeared into a self imposed exile. House Ermingard had lost much of their fleet and found themselves becoming a near vassal of their allies House Farhadi. House Harada recovered, but the stigma of their betrayal has been a stain they cannot erase. The Imperial Navy reacted with a decree by the sector admiral, no such attack near an Imperial shipyard would ever again be tolerated, any so reckless as to do so would be met with the full might and fury of the Imperial Navy. No noble has cared to test the decree.

Okay, so I love a good story. :wink: BTW, the noble houses are entirely made up and I've not gamed out the battle so I've very little idea what the actual fleet compositions would be, that's going to be another part of this little project. I do want to design several different huscarle cruisers and escorts around different design philosophies, I think it will make for a fun and interesting project. But naturally I started with the ship that inspired all of it... the Voshtar.

Before I post the ship specs, keep in mind several things when evaluating the design. One, she's not an Imperial Navy ship, she was designed to be the flagship of a noble. Her mission is only partly that of a warship, she was also built for diplomacy, leading trade missions, and as a personal yacht for the Count. Karl Rhenhardt (like much of his family at that point) were also scientists and engineers, so the Voshtar was also the personal yacht of very geeky nobility. I tried to keep all that in mind as I designed her, giving her her own character rather than just making a min/maxed fighting ship. Lastly, keep in mind the rules of engagement she was designed for, huscarle fleets in Deneb are limited to 2000 dT or less, so she has no need to engage anything larger and was not designed to.

(continued 1/2)
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Bardicheart » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 am

(part 2/2)

So, here's my ship specs for the 2000 dT TL 15 (nearly TL 16) Voshtar, the briefly former flagship of the Rheinhardt Huscarle Fleet (when they had one). I'm still making some final tweaks, some of it I won't be able to finalize until I draft the deck plans,

Hull
Streamlined, reinforced
Heat Shielding
Radiation Shielding

Armor
12 Bonded Superdense 192 dT

Drive
Jump - 3, TL 15 (15% less fuel usage), (600 PP to jump), 155 dT
Maneuver - 7 Gs, TL 15 (75% less power), (350 PP, 50 PP per G of thrust), 140 dT

Power
Fusion TL 15 1,600 PP, 80 dT
Emergency Power, 8 dT

Fuel
One Jump 3, 510 dT
8 weeks operation, 16 dT
Small Craft Reserve Fuel, 2 dT

Bridge, 40 dT
Extra sensor stations x4, 4 dT
Holographic controls

Sensors
Advanced, 6 PP, 5 dT
Countermeasures, 1 PP, 2 dT
Enhanced Signal Processing, 2 PP, 2 dT
Life Scanner Analysis Suite, 1 PP, 1 dT

Computer -- Haven't gotten to this part yet, will depend on final decisions about software.
Core/ ?
Backup ?

Software
Virtual Gunner/2, Bandwidth/6, 15 MCr
*** Normally the VG software only handles the targeting and firing of the 4 missile barbettes under the direction of the Weapon's Officer (or the XO or the Captain). But is actually capable of handling all the ship's weapons simultaneously. This allows it to take over for injured or killed gunnery crew where necessary and keep those systems firing. (Originally I was only going to use VG/0 for the missiles, but since we can't slave multiple turrets into batteries anymore, this was my work-around.)

Weapons (20 Hardpoints)
Missile Barbettes x4, 20 dT
Particle Beam Barbettes x4, 60 PP, 20 dT
Triple Pulse Laser Turrets x 11, 143 PP, 11 dT
*** The laser turrets are arranged in three batteries, 4 turrets starboard, 4 turrets port, and 3 aft. Their primary role is anti-fighter defense, then missile defense, then target small ships / escorts, and lastly any other available target.
Point Defense Battery (Type III) x1, 30 PP, 20

Ammunition
Missiles (100+300) 400, 25 dT
Exact load outs would vary but would likely be a mix of advanced, mult-warhead, fragmentation, shockwave and some ortillery depending on the mission. Nuclear missiles are never used, those are forbidden to huscarle fleets.

Defenses
Nuclear Damper Screens x2, 40 PP, dT14
*** I've debated about removing these in favor of armored bulkheads around the M-drives, but on the other hand it does mean his Excellency wouldn't have had to worry about going sterile from radiation.

Armored Bulkheads
Power, 8.8 dT
Bridge, 4.4 dT
Sensors, 1 dT

Okay from here we go to the ship compartments. To help me organize my thoughts I groups them into "sections" that actually evolved into physical sections in the deckplans (which I have just same basic conceptual sketches done so far). But this is also the area I've done most of my tinkering. I've put a lot of thought into how the ship would function, how it would perform its missions, what daily life aboard her would be like and tried to reflect that in design choices. Most sections connect to the Crew Section directly, and these connections include an special internal airlock. The airlocks are part of the 20 the ship is allowed as part of its hull, but each has larger pressure doors and is designed to be normally "deactivated". What this means is that under normal circumstance you have two bulkheads next to each other in a connecting hallway that allow normal traffic. But, during alerts pressure doors in the bulkheads close and the space between becomes a 2 man airlock. This does two things, in the event of a hull breach it prevents the entire ship from being depressurized, and secondly it hampers boarders who either have to cycle through 2 at a time or cut their way through both bulkhead doors.

Engineering Section (total 92 dT + power and drives) -- located aft ventral
Workshops x2, 12 dT
Repair Drones, 20 dT
Advanced Probe Drones x5, 1
Fuel Processors, 100 dT per day, 5 PP, 5 dT
Chief Engineer Quarters, Stateroom, 4 dT
2nd Engineer Quarters, Stateroom, 4 dT
Engineers Quarters, Stateroom (double bunk) x5, 20 dT
Maintenance Quarters, Stateroom (double bunk) x2, 8 dT
Common Space (Break room, engineers lounge, rec area), 9 dT
Armory, 1dT
Re-entry Capsules x 16, 8 dT
Includes a double sized airlock (no extra tonnage)

*** The engineering section has its own small armory allowing the engineers to arm themselves with small weapons and basic body armor in the event the ship is boarded. It is normally kept locked and the Chief Engineer and 2nd Engineer have the accesses codes (along with the Captian, XO, Weapons Officer and marine N/COs). The double sized airlock allows four people to exit to the exterior for repairs and maintenance. The airlock is boobytrapped to prevent boarders using it to enter the ship. The probe drones are also kept and launched from engineering, although used by the science department, its the engineers who maintain and repair the drones. The common space includes a break room (coffee makers, microwaves, snacks, etc), a small lounge with tables that are often variously covered in ship components, magazines, and an assortment of coffee mugs; if you aren't part of the engineering staff do NOT touch anything here! There is also a small rec space with hologames, weights and so forth. Anyone not part of the engineering section showing up here will get odd looks and questions about what their business is, and if they have no business being there they'd better be an officer! :wink:

Cargo -- currently 84.8 dT but this is subject to change as I make final tweaks. My target was to have around 100 dT which I'm currently below. The cargo bay is planned to be located ventral just forward of engineering. Both sections may end up being "double decks" 6m high instead of 3m elsewhere in the ship (3m with 2.5m open space and 0.5m taken up by "various ship systems")

Marine Section (32 total) total 115 dT
CO, Stateroom, 4 dT
Sergeants x3, Stateroom x3, 12 dT
Marines x28, Barracks, 56 dT
Armory, 8 dT
Briefing Room, 4 dT
Common Space, 15 dT
Training Space, Room for 8, 16 PP, 16 dT
Two 8 man airlocks, Airlocks x8 (no tonnage)

The marine barracks are arranged as 4 barracks of one squad each, each barracks contains bunks for 7 marines, a stateroom for the N/CO, and 2 dT of armory. The armories ensure all marines have full battledress and an assortment of weapons depending to mission with plenty of spare ammo. The armories can be secured by the N/COs to restrict access if necessary. The common space includes their own mess with auto-galley. Between the common space and training gym (with room for a full squad to train together) the marine section has a fairly generous amount of space available making the barracks unusually comfortable. The two 8 man airlocks are located on either side of the marine pinnace docking bay and allow two full squads at a time to exit the ship for boarding actions if necessary (the entire platoon could be in space in under 6 min). The marines are not provided escape capsules, instead on alert status the pilot of the marine pinnace readies it for launch and maintains that until alert status is canceled. In the event the pinnace is needed for either boarding operations or escape, the marines will pile in and it will then launch. In extreme situations the pinnace may launch and the marines would exit through the airlocks to be picked up by the pinnace later.

Medical Section -- total 36 dT
Medbay x2, Beds for 10 patients, 8 dT
Lowberths x20, 2 PP, 10 dT
Medlab, 4 dT
Surgery, 4 dT
Office, 2 dT
Medical Officer's Quarters, Stateroom, 4 dT
Nurses Quarters, Stateroom (doublebunk), 4 dT

The medical section is set up to handle virtually any medical emergency from a splinter to the flu to delivering a baby to open heart surgery to combat casualties. It has beds for up to 10 patients and 20 lowberths for preserving critical patients that cannot be immediately treated. Additionally, the medlab is set up to do everything from pregnancy tests, full blood work ups, screen for infectious diseases, genetic tests (to among other things determine ancestry or hereditary defects), and even do some research into unidentified ailments. I'm not saying if you have an alien organism hugging your face they can save you, but they'll give it a good hard try! There is also a full surgical ward, an office space for the medical officer and quarters for the medical officer and two nurses. The medical section also comes with several medical droids (like autodocs but they can move around). So rest easy, even if the entire crew comes down with the Rigellian Flu the medical section has it covered!

Science Section -- total 31 dT
Lab x3, 12 dT
Containment Lab x1, 4 dT
Offices, 3 dT
Scientist x3, Staterooms x3, 12 dT

Adjacent to the Medical Section, the Science section is composed of 3 labs. Generally one is set up for Life Sciences, one for Physical Sciences, and the third for Electronics / Cybernetics. The first two labs are used to study and collate data on visited worlds, identifying factors that have an economic value (be that mineral deposits, plants or animals of value, or conditions that create economic opportunity). The chief science officer then presents this information to the patron noble and any diplomatic envoys before any trade talks begin in an effort to give them every negotiating advantage. The third lab is generally used to help maintain, repair and even construct cybernetic augments often used by the nobility or crew. Get an arm blown off in combat, between the science section and medical they'll fix you right up! The containment lab has two cells (2m x 3m) secured like brigs but with multi-environmental equipment to allow them to approximate a variety of atmospheres, gravities, temperatures, etc. These can be used to study alien life forms when necessary.

Crew Section -- 163 dT
Captain, High Stateroom, 6 dT
Exec Officer, Stateroom, 4 dT
Operations Officer, Stateroom, dT
Pilots x3, Stateroom. 12 dT
Astrogator, Stateroom, 4 dT
Sensor Techs x6, Stateroom (double bunk) x3, 12 dT
Pinnace crews x2, Stateroom (double bunk), 4 dT
Weapons Officer, Stateroom, 4 dT
Gunners x16, Stateroom (double bunk) x8, 32 dT
Supply Officer, Stateroom, 4 dT
Chief Steward, Stateroom, 4 dT
Stewards x2, Stateroom (double bunk), 4 dT
Briefing Room, 4 dT
Common Space, 35 dT
Armory, 2 dT
Brig, 8 dT
Re-entry Capsules x 40, 20 dT

The crew section is the largest deck area on the ship. It includes the escape capsule bay for most of the crew (crew, medical and science section) which is located at a junction between the 3 and is almost its own section. The crew space includes both an officers and crew mess, galley and food locker, laundry, a rec area, offices for the captain, XO, weapons officers and operations officer (shared), and the supply officer and chief steward (shared). There is even a NEX (naval exchange) with POD magazines and books, misc. items, and also serves as a post office for physical mail (electronic mail gets sent directly to personal devices). The armory allows the crew to equip themselves with small arms and basic body armor in the event the ship is boarded and can be secured by any ship officer. The brig is large enough to hold up 12 prisoners (24 if you cram them in) for occasions when the ship is operating on patrols (customs inspections where the owning noble has jurisdiction) or for captured crew of other ships after combat. This may include prisoners taken by escorts and transferred here temporarily (the Voshtar was the intended command ship of a huscarle fleet).

Noble Section -- 109 dT total, upper most dorsal deck.
Noble, Luxury Stateroom, 10 dT
High Stateroom x4, 24 dT
Stateroom x4, 16 dT
Common Space, 40 dT
Library, 4 dT
Biosphere, 5 PP, 5 dT
Training Space, Room for 2 , 4 PP, 4 dT
Armory, 1 dT
Re-entry Capsules x 10, 5 dT

This includes the counts personal quarters (with a bed big enough for 2... or more). There are four other high passage staterooms for various noble guests, these might be diplomatic envoys or noble "prisoners" taken in combat (in which case marine guards would be posted). The remaining four staterooms are for aids, functionaries, personal chefs, bodyguards, etc. Whatever staff the count or his guest might care to bring along. The Armory and training space are built as a single area with much of the armor and weaponry on display (including the count's personal battledress armor, included as much for show as anything else), which includes a fine selection of swords, rapiers, fencing foils and dueling pistols and a space just large enough to host duels. The biosphere is a hydroponic garden providing both beauty, fresh air and fresh fruit for the count's table. The whole common space, which includes rooms, a bar, a lounge, formal dinning hall and a spa is richly appointed and furnished more resembling a planetary estate than what one would expect to find on a starship.

That leaves 88 dT for the two custom pinnace carried. One is the marine pinnace located just forward of the marine section and the other is a luxury pinnace located just aft of the noble section. I'm still working on both of these though the marine pinnace is mostly done and the luxury pinnace shouldn't be much more than a variant of the standard specs. Both are wedge shapes though, not the typical pinnace shape and so would not fit into other pinnace bays on other ships.

That's the Voshtar according to her schematics and surviving ship manuals. Going forward I want to do full deck plans for her and then a 3D model with some nice artistic renders. Eventually I want to do several such cruisers ranging from TL 12 to 15 (though none so advanced as the Voshtar) to represent a mix of older and newer designs and different design philosophies employed by various "noble houses", mainly just as a way to give each more individual character and make them seem less "cookie cutter" designs.

So, have at it, comments and thoughts welcome. If you want to use her in your campaigns, feel free, I'd be kinda flattered.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Baldo » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:14 pm

Bardicheart wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 am


Weapons

Particle Beam Barbettes x4, 60 PP, 20 dT

Nuclear missiles are never used, those are forbidden to huscarle fleets.
Not sure (I do not have the Deneb book close at hand), but ANY weapon with the Radiation trait is "forbidden to huscarle fleets", if I remember correctly.

Impressive work, however, anxiously awaiting to see the final draft. :mrgreen:
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Bardicheart » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:59 pm

You're correct, and I missed that. So I've two choices, one would be to swap them for Plasma Barbettes, shorter range, same basic damage and no radiation, bit less power usage so that would work. Or I could just ignore that prohibition. I'm going to have to go back over it and see if I can figure out why the author added the restriction. That is, do smaller weapons systems intended for ship vs ship really violate the intent or not? My impression was that the real purpose was to prevent the atrocities against civilian populations that had happened during the Bad War, if that is the case it seems likely to me that the Navy wouldn't much care what the nobles did to each other. Point to ponder though.

I've still got quite a bit to figure out on the Voshtar, plus 2 TL 12 designs to finish, a TL 14 design to finish and a TL 15 design to finish. An then maybe a few 1000 dT escort destroyer designs, some troop transports and so forth.

Glad you liked it, I'm anxiously awaiting the final draft too! :lol: But its a fun project, definitely gotten my creativity going which was one of the goals.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:22 pm

Given the size constraints and the relaxed budget I have some comments...


Escape Capsules: I consider staterooms rated for two people, so I would include two capsules per stateroom, regardless of planned dual occupancy. We will carry supernumeraries from time to time. I would spread the capsules out with many close to duty stations, like the bridge, as well as the quarters.

Common Areas are very unevenly distributed, e.g. the Med and Science crew gets none. I assume they will not actually be quartered separately, together with their workplaces?

A few extra staterooms will likely come in handy. In a crew this size the numbers will be a bit fluid, especially with the hospitality function involved.

I would not quarter servants in the private Noble section. I would probably include a few more Lux staterooms for family and guests. A separate tiny lifeboat for the family? You could even make the entire Noble section a large docked craft, so that you can park your sitting room close to where you want to be?

Barracks are not smaller than dual-occupancy staterooms, just slightly cheaper. It's just petty to quarter regular crew Marines in extremely spartan quarters. I would use staterooms, even if the troops are quartered in squad-sized rooms. Barracks are for troop transports, in my opinion.

Boats. Pinnaces are large, Ships's Boats should be sufficient, saving 22 Dt. A Ship's Boat could easily carry the entire Marine complement. (See the Boarding Craft thread.)

Fuel Processors are probably under-sized. Over five days to refine fuel for one jump is very long. One or two days is reasonable?



Reflec. Given the size of the ship it's vulnerable to crits from laser turrets.

A little more armour would significantly reduce damage from light weapons, as we are likely to meet.

Nuke Dampers: Given that we don't expect nukes they only protect against Fusion weapons. The ship is already fast and set up for long range combat, so we could generally just keep out of range of Fusion weapons. The two dampers only protects against one or two attacks anyway. I would leave them out... Perhaps Armoured Bulkheads around the Noble section?

With good gunners the PD Battery is only worth two laser turrets. I would leave it out... Laser turrets are always usable, they do surprising amounts of damage to ships with less than maximum armour.

A large docking clamp would let us carry a damaged escort to safety.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:24 pm

Bardicheart wrote: You're correct, and I missed that. So I've two choices, one would be to swap them for Plasma Barbettes, shorter range, same basic damage and no radiation, bit less power usage so that would work.
Tachyon barbettes are a good choice against heavy armour?
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:44 pm

Tachyon weapons are not OTU compliant.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:02 pm

Sigtrygg wrote: Tachyon weapons are not OTU compliant.
Are they not? They are in the basic Weapon chapter.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:20 pm

Here we go again.

Just because something is in the basic weapons chapter or basic ship construction chapters of HG2e it does not make them OTU compliant.

I argued many times during the playtest that this should have been made very clear.

Tachyon weapons are not the only system to be found in the basic construction chapters that are not OTU compliant.

You then have to go to the options chapters to find stuff that is OTU compliant and is actually in the grandfathered designs later in the book.

Remember that HG2e is a generic book for sci fi big ships, which has to be adapted to the OTU. HG2e is not a definitive guide to shipbuilding in the OTU without a supplemental guide to which systems are allowed in the OTU and which are cartoon science fantasy.

If MgT wants to introduce tachyon weapons etc into their ATU then they are diverging even further from any iteration of the canonical OTU.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:51 pm

I agree that what tech are available in the Imperium is rather loosely defined.

I agree that it should be better defined.

Which is why I'm somewhat surprised that you can be so sure of what is and isn't "OTU compliant". What is the definition of "OTU compliant"?

I just use the basic Weapon chapter, but stay away from High Tech chapter.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:58 pm

To be OTU compliant it has to have appeared in previous canon or be in T5.

Meson bays are OTU compliant since they are in many OTU sources and are even in the ships in HG2e. They are not in T5 as yet because T5 hasn't releaed BCS maker yet.

Tachyon weapons make no sense for several reasons, there are no such thing as tachyons for a start and a weapon that fires faster than light particles is a causality violation - not to mention they could be used for FTL coms which is strictly forbidden in the OTU.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:16 pm

So all other editions than MgT2 are canonical. Even TNE? MgT1?

Meson Guns are in T5, but only as Main, explicitly not Bay.

Tachyon Cannon is a silly name, but it's not defined how it works.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:22 pm

There is stuff in MgT that is canon for the OTU setting and there is stuff in MgT that is not canonical for the OTU setting.

In a similar way there is stuff in TNE FF&S that is not canonical for the OTU - eg stutterwarp - and stuff that was retconned out of the OTU eg HEPlaR as standard drive for all ships and jump fuel percentage.

MgT is not MgT The Third Imperium role playing game, it is a set of rules that emulated CT pretty closely - ie design your own setting as many have done and published (although several of these have now switched to CE due to the changes to the OGL) - and can be used in the Third Imperium setting, certain MgT products are specifically set in the Third Imperium circa 1105+, while some are for a generic universe.

HG2e is a set of rules for building and fighting large ships, but not all the rules and systems contained within are Third Imperium canon. A pretty piss poor job was done explaining this and has lead to a great deal of confusion as to what is and is not OTU compatible. This confusion could have been cleared up pre-publication but the powers that be decided not to. Nor has there been anything officially released to clarify the issue.

There are no meson bays in T5 because the rules for BCS have not been released yet. Meson bays have been part of the OTU since S:9 included them in ships of the Imperial fleet, MegaTraveller which was written specifically for the OTU also included them and there is no reason to claim or believe they have been retconned out of the OTU - especially since they are still in the Imperial ship examples in MgT HG2e
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:44 pm

Quite, every edition has changed things, and the OTU has changed with it. I fail to see why MgT2 should be any different.


No, Meson bays are explicitly removed, both in T5.09 and in MgT2, whether we like it or not.
May I remind you:
AndrewW wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:11 am
Gypsy Knights Games wrote: Am I missing something? Where are the meson bays?
No you aren't missing anything. One of those orders from above things.
msprange wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:43 pm
Canon directive, they are to be spinal mounts only. So, not in the core design rukles, but tyhis is why we have the High Technology chapter...

I agree it is quite amusing to see the explicitly removed Meson bays show up in official Imperial warships...
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:21 am

I don't believe the validity of the statement for several reasons:
meson bays exist in the designs included in the HG2e book
the original maker of that statement can not back it up with evidence, I put it down to misunderstanding
meson bays exist in every version of Traveller - they are not in T5 because we do not have the BCS ship design rules yet, they will be in there.
meson bays exist in two explicit versions of the OTU - CT supplement 9 and MegaTraveller

What is certain is that there is no mention in extant Traveller canon of the OTU existence of tachyon, gravimetric or ion weapons. Their inclusion is to StarWars-ify the basic game and to have kewel sci fantasy sounding weapon names.

If they are to be included in OTU material then their TL needs to change at the very least.

Oddly enough I do use them in my Culture setting, although I have renamed the silly ion cannon to electromagnetic pulse cannon and the tachyon cannon becomes the grid energy cannon.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Condottiere » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:29 am

It would make more sense if they'd just be listed as restricted military technology, considering that the meson sled tends to be integral in previous dirtside canon.

I would have just increased the costs, financially and energetically, to limit the numbers onboard warships, if that had been the author's intent.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Bardicheart » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:02 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:22 pm
Given the size constraints and the relaxed budget I have some comments...


Escape Capsules: I consider staterooms rated for two people, so I would include two capsules per stateroom, regardless of planned dual occupancy. We will carry supernumeraries from time to time. I would spread the capsules out with many close to duty stations, like the bridge, as well as the quarters.
For the noble passengers and their staff I could see this, for the rest of the crew quarters, no. The captain might have the occasional "guest" but so far as normal ship operations the only resident of the captains cabin should be the captain, same with the rest of the crew.
Common Areas are very unevenly distributed, e.g. the Med and Science crew gets none. I assume they will not actually be quartered separately, together with their workplaces?
Technically both the medical and science sections did get common space, it just got used up as office space (2 dT for the medical section, 3 for the science). However, the crew section has additional common space enough for the crew, the science section, the medical section and even some for the engineers (who also have enough in their own section, but lets not force them to be anti-social :wink: ). So for meals and recreation the the medical and science crew would use the crew section which is on the same deck and directly adjacent (in this case separating them as other sections is more for organization than actual physical separation). For the crew actually listed as quartered in the crew section standard common space (at 1/4 staterooms) would have required 23.5 dT common space, they got 35 dT :) Should be more than enough and quite roomy, well for a starship.
A few extra staterooms will likely come in handy. In a crew this size the numbers will be a bit fluid, especially with the hospitality function involved.
That's what the high class staterooms on the noble deck are for, diplomatic envoys, visiting nobles, etc.
I would not quarter servants in the private Noble section. I would probably include a few more Lux staterooms for family and guests. A separate tiny lifeboat for the family? You could even make the entire Noble section a large docked craft, so that you can park your sitting room close to where you want to be?
The four staterooms in the noble section aren't for servants, they're for staff. 24/7 service is provided by the three stewards which should be pretty top notch service. Staff are personal aids, personal bodyguards, people you want close. Also possibly a personal chef (though not needed, since the stewards could take care of that, unless you just really want me to recreate Below Decks: Deneb Sector :wink: ). The noble deck is also large enough those staterooms don't have to be directly adjacent. The noble deck has its own pinnace with private docking bay, which will probably get downgraded to a ships boat and possibly even a custom launch, it only needs to carry 10 passengers at most, plus a steward and the pilot. So that's their lifeboat in addition to the escape capsules. SOP is during alert status their boat (whatever it is) is readied for launch whether it will be needed or not, if the ship has to be abandoned then its ready to go.
Barracks are not smaller than dual-occupancy staterooms, just slightly cheaper. It's just petty to quarter regular crew Marines in extremely spartan quarters. I would use staterooms, even if the troops are quartered in squad-sized rooms. Barracks are for troop transports, in my opinion.
They aren't smaller, but they are more flexible. I needed bunks for 7 people and one stateroom for the N/CO. Otherwise I end up with 4 staterooms and an empty bunk. I don't see the barracks as being less comfortable considering I was pretty generous with the common and training space, they've got a lot of elbow room. Basically I just built a 7 person stateroom with a small bit of common space, an armory and a private room for the N/CO (who need the space for paperwork and such). If you've seen the Ares Dragon merc cruiser by Hell Creek Sanitarium (on DriveThru) I borrowed the "barracks" arrangement from them and they have deckplans that depict how they did it. Its a nice arrangement and keeping it at the squad level I don't see it as being any less comfortable than double bunk staterooms, actually it looked a bit nicer, less claustrophobic.
Boats. Pinnaces are large, Ships's Boats should be sufficient, saving 22 Dt. A Ship's Boat could easily carry the entire Marine complement. (See the Boarding Craft thread.)
Noted, looking at this for the noble boat, but the marine pinnace is fixed. It needs 32 passengers (marines) plus six additional passengers (chairs) plus armor and speed and any weapons (still mulling weapons over). Its primary role is putting the marines and any "away team" on the ground which will usually include the XO, scientist, medical and technical personnel as needed (up to 6 total). Boarding is a secondary function, mainly for customs inspections, its not really set up for combat forced boardings but it can do it.

But if you want to stat out a 30 dT marine launch that can do the above, I'd love to see it. :wink:
Fuel Processors are probably under-sized. Over five days to refine fuel for one jump is very long. One or two days is reasonable?
My thinking was as part of the huscarle fleet it either refuels at starports or from tankers, the limited ability to refuel "in the wild" was more for emergencies than regular use. Its not really a ship of exploration although Count Karl Rheinhardt was looking beyond the Deneb Sector for trade deals, including within the Vargr expanse, he just never got the chance.
Reflec. Given the size of the ship it's vulnerable to crits from laser turrets.
Noted, see below.
A little more armour would significantly reduce damage from light weapons, as we are likely to meet.

Nuke Dampers: Given that we don't expect nukes they only protect against Fusion weapons. The ship is already fast and set up for long range combat, so we could generally just keep out of range of Fusion weapons. The two dampers only protects against one or two attacks anyway. I would leave them out... Perhaps Armoured Bulkheads around the Noble section?

With good gunners the PD Battery is only worth two laser turrets. I would leave it out... Laser turrets are always usable, they do surprising amounts of damage to ships with less than maximum armour.
Noted. So if I do the following:
Change the particle beam barbettes to plasma barbettes due to the "no radiation weapon" restriction for huscarle fleets.
Drop the PD Battery and add one more laser turret, redistribute them 2 forward, 2 aft, 2 port, 2 starboard, 2 dorsal and 2 ventral that gives even defense coverage. Or I could just do 2 forward, 2 aft, 4 port and 4 starboard and keep it simpler.
Drop the nuclear damper screens
That gets me 33 dT back
Add 2 more points armor, that costs me 32 dT
Leaving 1 additional dT for cargo.
And add reflect which brings laser defense up to 17 and that should pretty much let her ignore beam and pulse lasers I think.

Now to figure out what to do with that noble launch (20 or 30 dT so I should get back another 11 dT, possibly 22 dT there)
Q: If the noble launch is capable of carrying all passengers on that deck and SOP is to ready it for launch in alert status, do I really need the escape capsules?

Then depending on what I have left, maybe a couple passenger staterooms in the crew area for extra crew or passengers.

Would have loved to have had armored bulkheads around the noble deck but I just can't see where the tonnage would come from, 11 dT that could be better used elsewhere (like maybe bulkheads on the manuever drive which seems much more likely to take crits), I'd really like to do both but that would mean giving up on my target for cargo so if the marines need vehicles then an extra transport ship would have to be brought along... doable but... meh.
A large docking clamp would let us carry a damaged escort to safety.
Hadn't considered that, will put it on the idea list.

Thanks for the feedback. Still feel a lil anxious removing the damper screens since that would stop any radiation damage at all. But I guess the radiation shielding will have to be enough.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby AndrewW » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:05 am

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:21 am
I don't believe the validity of the statement for several reasons:
meson bays exist in the designs included in the HG2e book
the original maker of that statement can not back it up with evidence, I put it down to misunderstanding
meson bays exist in every version of Traveller - they are not in T5 because we do not have the BCS ship design rules yet, they will be in there.
meson bays exist in two explicit versions of the OTU - CT supplement 9 and MegaTraveller
While the second edition of High Guard was being worked on we where told Meson Bays didn't exist in the Third Imperium (ignoring their previous existence) thus they got moved to the High Technology chapter. Anyone is of course free to use them.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Bardicheart » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:08 am

Regarding the Tachyon, Ion, Meson and OTU debate... what I have always found odd is that there are no "heavy beam laser or heavy pulse laser" barbettes. That seems much more OTU friendly and gives us options for no radiation weapons. But alas...

Any OTU issue with the plasma barbettes? Cause otherwise I'm going to be scratching my head on not just this design but all the others for weapons. I had planned to make the plasma barbette the favored "main" weapon of the Ermingard's while the Farhadi prefer LOTS of missiles. Still pondering what weapon concept the Harada would employ. But basically I wanted to borrow from Fading Suns and give different factions different weapon strategies and different hull shapes (stylistic differences) for variety and to help make them more interesting.
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Re: [Deneb Sector] 2000 dT Huscarle Cruisers

Postby Condottiere » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 am

This issue is just being rehashed.

I didn't care if meson bays are canon within the Third Imperium or not, what annoyed me was the inconsistency.

Ship designs published by the current rights holder are considered canon, and an example of how ships should be designed: so if you incorporate meson bays and tractor beams to Imperium Navy warships, that means it's official canon within the Mongoverse.

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