Boarding Craft

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:01 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote: This opens up possibilities...
Eh, not so much.

Cruisers and larger are immune to crits from anything but spinals. No joy.

Ships of 2000 Dt and less are toast if fighters gets close, but they already are.

Ships between 2000 Dt and 20000 Dt can be critted by bays. To get the bays into dogfight we would need special bay "super-fighters". We need to do a fair bit of damage at point-blank range, this might actually be a job for Mass Driver bays. At ten times the size and cost of barbette fighter they do ten times the damage which is reasonable, but they can only hit large ships and auto-loses against fighters.

Something like this:
Image
Condottiere
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby Condottiere » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:10 pm

Large bays can criticalize everyone.

Hundred kay tonne hulls shrug off small and medium bays.
Old School
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby Old School » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:02 pm

Four crits against power shuts down the ship, and a slow ship can lose its M drive with less, but multiple critical hits at -2 DM short range is quite an accomplishment. Probably only useful to shut down ships that sre already overmatched anyway.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:13 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:10 pm
Large bays can criticalize everyone.
Theoretically yes, but you would need to do at least 150 points of damage to achieve a Severity 1 crit on a small cruiser; no bay can do that, so practically they are immune to crits from bays.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:55 pm

Old School wrote: Four crits against power shuts down the ship, and a slow ship can lose its M drive with less, but multiple critical hits at -2 DM short range is quite an accomplishment. Probably only useful to shut down ships that sre already overmatched anyway.
Four crits to either power plant or fuel would shut the ship down. PP can be protected by both bulkheads and emergency power, while fuel can only be protected by bulkheads (much more expensively for a jump ship).

PP crits can be repaired, fuel tanks can also be repaired, but replacing the lost fuel is not so trivial.

Totally it's probably better to go for the tanks.


Achieving crits with good naval gunners with reasonable augmentation and computer support is not all that difficult. Let's say that a few superfighters have made it into dogfighting range; they easily win the dogfight with superior numbers and acceleration.

The first few attacks (with dodge):
Attack: +6[gunner] +5[FireCtrl] +1[aid gunner] +1[sub-command] +2[dogfight] -2[called shot] -3[Evade] -6[dodge] = +4: hit on 4+, crit on 10+ (17%).

After the target runs out of dodges:
Attack: +6[gunner] +5[FireCtrl] +1[aid gunner] +1[sub-command] +2[dogfight] -2[called shot] -3[Evade] = +10. Autohit, crit on 4+ (92%).

Damage: 2DD: average 70 - 15 armour = 55, enough to crit a ship with 5500 Hull, about 12500 Dt. Low rolls will not achieve enough damage, let's call it 67% chance of doing enough damage.

So, if the target dodges 6 times the first six attacks gives 6 × 0.17 × 0.67 ≈ average 0.7 crits.
After that the attacks crit 92% × 67% ≈ 61%, so we need another 3.3 crits or 3.3/0.61 ≈ 5.4 attacks to achieve an average of 4 crits.
Totally 12 attacks will usually achieve the needed 4 crits.

We will have done about 6 × 0.92 × 55 + 6 × 55 ≈ 633 damage, a little over 10% of the damage needed to destroy the target.

We needed about 15 super-fighters (with some losses) à 400 Dt = 6000 Dt to cripple a 10000 Dt ship in a single dogfighting round. If we give it some time about 5 super-fighters would probably be enough.
Old School
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby Old School » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:52 am

reasonable
lol
steve98052
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby steve98052 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm

Cool design. I am not sharp enough with the rules to add much to that part of the discussion.

One idea i can add is that it might be nice to have a craft that can serve as a passenger launch, cargo launch, medical transport, etc. -- and also as a customs inspection launch for ships that arereacting like aninspection is a routine nuisance rather than a threat.

In the routine nuisance case, it probably puts ship crews more at ease to see a ship that feels like an English billy club policeman than one that looks like a militarized SWAT team.

Finally, here's one more thought that no one addressed:
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:24 am
. . .
Boarding Craft, “Leech” (Temporary name)
. . .
How about Lamprey? I can imagine that a forced breaching ring might look a bit like a lamprey's mouth.

Working from the idea that its purpose it to insert something that doesn't belong (boarding troops) into the target ship, you could go with anything that has a stinger, injection fangs, etc.: Scorpion, Wasp, Viper, etc.
baithammer
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby baithammer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:32 pm

Since bay weapons have the same penalty whether the ship is 400 dt or 2,000 dt, would make it better to go with the 2,000 dt assault ship as it would last longer and bring more guns to the fight. ( Also useful as launching platform for boarding craft.)
Annatar Giftbringer
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:25 pm

steve98052 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm
Cool design. I am not sharp enough with the rules to add much to that part of the discussion.

One idea i can add is that it might be nice to have a craft that can serve as a passenger launch, cargo launch, medical transport, etc. -- and also as a customs inspection launch for ships that arereacting like aninspection is a routine nuisance rather than a threat.

In the routine nuisance case, it probably puts ship crews more at ease to see a ship that feels like an English billy club policeman than one that looks like a militarized SWAT team.

Finally, here's one more thought that no one addressed:
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:24 am
. . .
Boarding Craft, “Leech” (Temporary name)
. . .
How about Lamprey? I can imagine that a forced breaching ring might look a bit like a lamprey's mouth.

Working from the idea that its purpose it to insert something that doesn't belong (boarding troops) into the target ship, you could go with anything that has a stinger, injection fangs, etc.: Scorpion, Wasp, Viper, etc.
Steve, that’s a very good point! My idea was to use one design for every job, but as you say even if the target knows that it’s just a routine customs check, it will feel awkward and scary to be approached by an armoured IFV when a regular car with military license plates would suffice...

So, perhaps keep some regular launches aboard the cruiser too, for routine work? Of course the boarding craft would also be used for routine work from time to time, their pilots need training too.

Also, thanks for the name suggestions! They’re all better than my initial suggestion :) I’ll see which one I’ll settle for when I finally decide a final version!


And baithammer, just a thought, but would a 2,000 dt assault ship need to launch boarding craft at all? Couldn’t it be the boarding craft itself? On such a small hull, the hangars and launch tubes for small craft will steal precious space.



As for optimal engagement distance, yes under ideal circumstances the attack should be launched from under medium distance to reduce time to target to a single file round.

That’s why we designed it with powerful m-drive and kept it small enough to fit the existing launch facilities (20 dt in this case). And for those boardings when things are less than ideal, it also has wavy armour, to survive the trip to the target.



The 10 ton variant looks nice! Am I understanding it correctly that the passenger area from the original 20 ton craft is now a module? It did get a cockpit I see, but for normal short deployments is that really an issue, other than in roleplaying terms?
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:36 pm

I believe baithammer's 2000 Dt comment was about my crit-fisher superfighter sidetrack.

Yes, we could make it bigger, it would even have decent scale advantages and at 2000 Dt be able to mount 6-7 bays. The problem is that we can't run 6-7 instances of Fire Control/5 in any computer. Since it is a crit-fisher design it is highly dependent on high attack DMs, and using Adv Fire Control/3 would yield much less crits.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:44 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:36 pm
I believe baithammer's 2000 Dt comment was about my crit-fisher superfighter sidetrack.

Yes, we could make it bigger, it would even have decent scale advantages and at 2000 Dt be able to mount 6-7 bays. The problem is that we can't run 6-7 instances of Fire Control/5 in any computer. Since it is a crit-fisher design it is highly dependent on high attack DMs, and using Adv Fire Control/3 would yield much less crits.
It would be an interesting “fighter” at 2,000 tons! Just imagine the size of the launch tubes, not to mention the carriers :)

We might not be able to do 7x FiCon/5, but how about adv. FiCon/3 & 4x FiCon/3, giving four bays +6DM each? Requires a core/90 and is a bit expensive, but it can be done.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:45 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Am I understanding it correctly that the passenger area from the original 20 ton craft is now a module?
Yes, the 20 Dt craft had a 5 Dt module + 6 Dt cargo / passenger space, the 10 Dt craft has only the 5 Dt module.

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: It did get a cockpit I see, but for normal short deployments is that really an issue, other than in roleplaying terms?
A cockpit something like a fighter cockpit; the pilot is strapped down in a cramped seat with no connection to internal spaces, only accessed through the canopy.

A 3 Dt bridge is something like the cockpit in a commercial airliner; two seats (approx.?), a little room to move and a connection the rest of the craft.

Or so I would imagine.

Functionally there is no big difference for flying the craft, but with a cockpit the pilot can't go into the passenger space for a chat or cup of coffee.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:57 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: It would be an interesting “fighter” at 2,000 tons! Just imagine the size of the launch tubes, not to mention the carriers :)
Think bigger! What about a 60 kDt battle rider with a 30 kDt spinal?

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: We might not be able to do 7x FiCon/5, but how about adv. FiCon/3 & 4x FiCon/3, giving four bays +6DM each? Requires a core/90 and is a bit expensive, but it can be done.
While there is no explicit ban I would not allow stacking FC DMs, otherwise we could run 4 instances of FC/5 and apply them all to a single attack for a DM+20.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:45 pm

Understandable, the difference between the 10 and 20 dt versions. Still, impressive that the foundation could be kept, with M-drive armour and module!

Sounds like reasonable cockpit/control cabin descriptions. Being able to move around can be important, for coffee or emergency engineering work!

I like to look at small craft bridges kinda like the one on a small cargo barge we rented passage on once to make an island delivery at work. The barge was basically an open cargo deck, a crane, engine and a small control cabin. Inside was controls for steering the boat, obviously, as well as a couch/emergency bunk along one wall, some storage space and a small table/countertop that could fold away to reveal a mini-galley.

Since cockpits are meant for “only up to 24 hours” it kinda makes sense if it’s possible (though uncomfortable) to actually live in a small craft bridge for a few days if needed. It would of course be preferred to have a common area, some cabin space or even a stateroom available for long journeys, but you know, sometimes...



Fair point regarding stacking FiCon.

I guess n a way a battlerider is a kind of mega-fighter, yeah... :)
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby baithammer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:27 pm

The idea of using the 2,000t hull is as an assault ship to ensure you can reach immediate deployment range for the pods, with 20tx10 pods / launch tube it would only take 420t and if instead using 10tx10 / launch tube would be 210t.

Get to short range, fish for crits and then launch a boarding attack on the same turn as the launch.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:55 pm

baithammer wrote: The idea of using the 2,000t hull is as an assault ship to ensure you can reach immediate deployment range for the pods, with 20tx10 pods / launch tube it would only take 420t ...
With 420 Dt boat bay it wouldn't have any space left for crit-fishing bays...

But using a 2001+ Dt hull is probably a good idea, to be immune to crits from turrets.

Perhaps something like this:
Image
2100 Dt, M-9 + R-16, Armour 15 + Reflec.
3 bays (Accurate) with FC/5 for all.
10 tiny boarding craft à 10 Dt with launch tube.

Note that we could get quite a few "normal" boarding craft with reaction drives for MCr 2000.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby baithammer » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:58 am

Here's a stab at a more conventional Assault Ship and Assault Pod.

Ship

Image

Pod

Image

Pods are stored in the launch tube system and both vessels are designed for short term operation so very little crew as well as very little cargo space.

Might setup the Launch Tubes as a module so it can swap out to a Orbital Assault System (OAS) for planetary insertions.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm

How is it going to get close to the target with only 8 g thrust?

Wouldn't it be better to launch the pods at range and let them close in independently as they have 9 g?
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby baithammer » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:32 pm

The assault ships would be following up with the combat ships who would be doing the majority of the softening of the target and the aim is to get the assault ships within short range, then deploy the pods so they only have 1 turn of exposure while able to take the boarding action on the same turn.

Basically once the battlegroup reaches very long range, the Assault Ships apply full burn for 5 turns to get into short range ( Get to take a pot shot with both bays at medium range on the way in.), where the assault pods are launched and if they survive are able to attempt boarding on the action step. ( 120 marines per assault ship.)

As mentioned in the previous post, working on switching the pods + launch tube into a module space which can be swapped for Orbital Assault System (OAS) thereby allowing planetary interaction as well.
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Re: Boarding Craft

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:27 am

baithammer wrote: The assault ships would be following up with the combat ships who would be doing the majority of the softening of the target and the aim is to get the assault ships within short range, ...
So you are relying on the enemy cooperating by sitting still while you slowly approach them? How convenient!

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