Classic (breakaway) Cutter

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AnotherDilbert
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Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:20 pm

This is not the old LSP Modular Cutter, but the typically over-engineered GSbAG version. Built as a breakaway hull with four sections: A Spine, an Engineering section, a Crew section, and a Payload section (the module). The Spine is mounted on top of the other modules and keeps them together with the Crew section forward, the Engineering section aft, with the Payload section in the middle. Only the Crew section has a bridge, the other sections are controlled by Virtual Crew when not connected. Built to roughly the same dimensions as the default LSP Cutter, it can fit in the same docking spaces. The civilian version is designed at TL-11 for ease of manufacturing and maintenance.


The Spine:
A 5 Dt section is just a tube with attachments for the other sections. Down the middle is a 20 m long circular crawlway with a diameter of 1 m. This should be a tight fit, allowing crawling in a vacc suit but probably not in a battledress. A reinforced hull built of thick armour keeps the Cutter rigid. One Dt is left open to fit a turret or docking clamp for another payload module. The breakaway connectors are slightly (10%) oversized to allow a little bigger drive or crew modules in a pinch. The section has a tiny M-drive-2 and a power plant to allow reconfiguration. The empty space and even the crawlspace can be filled with collapsible tanks.
https://i.imgur.com/PEMUnSw.png

Engineering:
A 5 Dt section with the main drives to give the cutter 4 g acceleration. The power plant is a bit over-provisioned and can provide 10 Power to other sections.
https://i.imgur.com/FpcAhMC.png

Crew:
A 10 Dt section with a bridge and a 6 Dt space with by default an airlock and 4 Dt cargo with collapsible tanks and foldable seating for 16 passengers. Better sensors or weapons can be fitted instead. The section can operate independently with M-2.
https://i.imgur.com/FJJW9f2.png

Payload:
A 30 Dt section that can contain anything. Here an empty cargo module with 29 Dt cargo and some overhead including a small battery that can power the section separately for an hour.
https://i.imgur.com/9Kz1tcg.png


Total Craft:
Image


The military version has armoured Drive and Crew sections. To make space for the armour the Drive section is larger and the Crew section is smaller. Since the connecting Spine is over-dimensioned we can mix-and-match sections as needed.
phavoc
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby phavoc » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Is this version built by Voltron Industries? :D

The problem here is that the 'classic' design doesn't match the new rules. Which is a problem when you try to create new design rules and then shoe-horn the old designs back into the rules.

Under the design rules, isn't having a turret space in the breakaway structure a violation of the spirit, if not the words, for minimal hull size for a turret? You are giving it the same tonnage as the previous designs but adding a 2nd maneuver drive (and power source), multiple breakaway modules, and really crappy batteries.

I take it this endeavor was more out of something like a Mythbusters episode? It doesn't seem to have much, if any, practical applications. The individual pieces aren't terribly useful for anything else but making the ship as a whole. And if that were the case, then why bother spending the credits and mass for the couplings to make all this work?
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:46 am

Ok, sure it's a design-exercise, but it's quite usable as a drop-in replacement for the classic cutter. I would even call it somewhat useful that we can use the Crew section separately, or pull the Engineering section for maintenance.

In a breakaway design the total spacecraft is a "ship" and are subject to the normal rules, I believe. Each breakaway section is subject to special rules, mainly each section must have a bridge and power source. Each section "should normally" have an M-drive.

The total 50 Dt craft has two firmpoints, they have to show up in some section or other. If each section is allowed to have separate firmpoints, then we could make 50 Dt craft with five sections of 10 Dt and five firmpoints, or even a 100 Dt ship in ten sections with ten missile racks, which would be a worse exploit.
Old School
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby Old School » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:27 am

phavoc wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:27 pm
Under the design rules, isn't having a turret space in the breakaway structure a violation of the spirit, if not the words, for minimal hull size for a turret?
Man, you really arent going to like the 1000 ton ship I just designed with 4 seperate 50 ton modular sections. :D
phavoc
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby phavoc » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:42 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:46 am
Ok, sure it's a design-exercise, but it's quite usable as a drop-in replacement for the classic cutter. I would even call it somewhat useful that we can use the Crew section separately, or pull the Engineering section for maintenance.

In a breakaway design the total spacecraft is a "ship" and are subject to the normal rules, I believe. Each breakaway section is subject to special rules, mainly each section must have a bridge and power source. Each section "should normally" have an M-drive.

The total 50 Dt craft has two firmpoints, they have to show up in some section or other. If each section is allowed to have separate firmpoints, then we could make 50 Dt craft with five sections of 10 Dt and five firmpoints, or even a 100 Dt ship in ten sections with ten missile racks, which would be a worse exploit.
I haven't been spending enough time with the rules to give an extremely informed opinion. But to me it seems to at least violate the spirit of the rules. And by that I mean it seems to be all pluses with no minuses. To do all that it should cost more and be less viable because otherwise you are getting all of that for no penalty. Which makes no sense to me.

Then again, the Voltron series made no sense, yet it was (is?) a fun cartoon.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby baithammer » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:36 am

In a breakaway design the total spacecraft is a "ship" and are subject to the normal rules, I believe
That is for combined drive calculation, not the separate sections.
The total 50 Dt craft has two firmpoints, they have to show up in some section or other. If each section is allowed to have separate firmpoints, then we could make 50 Dt craft with five sections of 10 Dt and five firmpoints, or even a 100 Dt ship in ten sections with ten missile racks, which would be a worse exploit.
And each section would have a smaller hull point value and could be targeted separately.

Further, the linkage / bridge / power plant per section eats up a fair amount of displacement.

The firmpoint is balanced by the loss of barbette.

But for certain designs it has possibilities.
Condottiere
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:00 am

If each breakaway section has at least ten tonnes, you can stick a firmpoint on it.

This could exceed the metaship's theoretical maximum, but each breakaway section is considered on it's own, not as part of a whole.
phavoc
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby phavoc » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:51 pm

It's still straying too far into the cartoon world for me to get behind this concept.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:05 pm

baithammer wrote: That is for combined drive calculation, not the separate sections.
Is it?

baithammer wrote: And each section would have a smaller hull point value and could be targeted separately.
No, that is for Docking Clamps.

As far as I understand, the combined sections form a single hull, a single ship (while connected).

The rules are not very clear, but:
Breakaway Hulls: A ship can be designed so it can
operate as two or more independent vessels, breaking
or splitting away from one another. Each section must
have an appropriate bridge and power plant to operate it.

Checking old post on the forum we seem to have an official clarification:
AndrewW wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:02 pm
Hardpoints in relation to breakaway hull designs was actually discussed during development. It was left open so groups can do it whichever way they like, without being forced into ok, you can't do it this way or making a house rule.
So we can do it either way, and it's officially correct.

baithammer wrote: Further, the linkage / bridge / power plant per section eats up a fair amount of displacement.
Agreed. The bridge is the worst space waste, but we can get around that with Virtual Crew.

We don't really need more total power plant, just divide the total ship's needed power plant among the sections.

baithammer wrote: The firmpoint is balanced by the loss of barbette.
What loss of barbettes? Use 35 Dt sections...
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:10 pm

phavoc wrote: But to me it seems to at least violate the spirit of the rules. And by that I mean it seems to be all pluses with no minuses. To do all that it should cost more and be less viable because otherwise you are getting all of that for no penalty. Which makes no sense to me.
The breakaway connectors are expensive and takes noticeable space. Note that the breakaway cutter is several MCr more expensive, and has less usable space than the modular cutter.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:20 pm

If we want to treat each section as a complete separate spacecraft we end up with something like this:

The military breakaway cutter:

Engineering and Spine:
10 Dt, one firmpoint turret, connectors, 4 g drives, 6 g alone or with Crew section attached.
https://i.imgur.com/LJ2g5x1.png

Crew:
10 Dt, one firmpoint turret, bridge, 2 g drives.
https://i.imgur.com/Z6QPaIK.png

Payload:
35 Dt, one firmpoint barbette, no drives.
https://i.imgur.com/xQ2j4Jw.png

Total:
55 Dt, barbette + 2 turrets, 4 g drives.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby baithammer » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:51 am

Could simplify it even more by only having two sections, a carrier section ( Crew+Spine+engineering) and the module section.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:04 am

baithammer wrote: Could simplify it even more by only having two sections, ...
Quite, but that would remove one firmpoint and the weaken pedagogic purpose of the design: To demonstrate why firmpoints per section is questionable.

I think a 55 Dt craft with four firmpoints is a bit iffy...
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby baithammer » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:45 am

Just remember the more sections you have the less hull points it takes to wipe them out.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:10 pm

I wouldn't bother with individual Hull if the ship is connected. It's just a single ship with a single Hull point pool.
Condottiere
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby Condottiere » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:00 pm

You're looking at hull integrity, especially if you want to collect on those extra hull points at designated volumes.

The only way I see that possibility, is if there are extra internal clamps taking up more space, and requiring a lengthier period to couple and decouple.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby baithammer » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:55 pm

I wouldn't bother with individual Hull if the ship is connected. It's just a single ship with a single Hull point pool.
Not according to the break away hull rules.
While
the sections are together, drives, power plants and weapons
can all be combined when calculating performance.
And
Hull points of each
section will be proportionate to the total Hull points of the
ship.
Meaning each ship has its own hull points, while drives / power plants / weapons are combined when calculating performance.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:48 am

Yes, and no...
Breakaway Hulls: A ship can be designed so it can operate as two or more independent vessels, breaking or splitting away from one another.
...
Hull points of each section will be proportionate to the total Hull points of the ship.
The connected sections together form a ship. The total ship has a total Hull point score.

E.g. a 150 000 Dt ship divided into 10 sections has 150000 / 1.5 = 100 000 Hull points. Each section has 100 000 / 10 = 10 000 Hull points. (Each section seen separate would have 15 000 / 2.5 = 6 000 Hull points.)


It's not a few ships clumping together to travel in the same direction, it's a single ship that can split up, as far as I can see.

While disconnected from the mothership, the individual section has to be treated as a separate ship, but it is built as a part of a whole.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby baithammer » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:33 am

The first section relates to what is used when a breakaway vessel is combined, while the second section stipulates that each craft in the break away design has a proportionate amount of hull points in line with the individual hull.
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Re: Classic (breakaway) Cutter

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:13 pm

Possibly, possibly not. The rules are not very clear.

I interpret the breakaway ship as a single ship when connected.

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