An Alphabet of Ships

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Old School
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Re: An Alphabet of Ships

Postby Old School » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:04 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:18 pm
Old School wrote: You show the Meson Cannon as an internal system. Is that how you justify having essentially three bay weapons on a 200 ton design? How are these stats (60 tons, MCr20.1, 0 power) derived? How does the meson beam fire without putting a hole in it's own ship?
Smaller Weapons (HG, p32).
Meson Accelerator (CSC, p131).
It is similar in operation to starship-grade meson guns in that the particles it accelerates do not interact with matter until they decay, allowing the weapon to effectively shoot through any obstruction so long as the target’s location is known.
Well, at least I learned something about theoretical Meson technology today. So we're adding a 60 ton (mass, not displacement, I'm guessing it's displacement would actually be less - and the ship could use a little extra room :)) ground based weapon using the "smaller weapons" rule. Got it.

The smaller weapons rule in High Guard is clear that ground based weapons under 250kg do not require a hardpoint, and are mounted on fixed points or small turrets. Weapons of 250kg to 1 ton go in turrets, larger weapons on or fixed mounts. The "no hardpoint" feature is not mentioned for these "larger smaller weapons". The fixed mount for that meson accelerator requires a hardpoint the ship doesn't have. I like the very evil concept, but this design is clearly not within the RAW.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: An Alphabet of Ships

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:53 pm

Old School wrote: The smaller weapons rule in High Guard is clear that ground based weapons under 250kg do not require a hardpoint, and are mounted on fixed points or small turrets. Weapons of 250kg to 1 ton go in turrets, larger weapons on or fixed mounts. The "no hardpoint" feature is not mentioned for these "larger smaller weapons". The fixed mount for that meson accelerator requires a hardpoint the ship doesn't have. I like the very evil concept, but this design is clearly not within the RAW.
I believe the last paragraph just list the difference between light Smaller Weapons and heavy Smaller Weapons. I do not see hardpoints required for any ground scale weapon. The turrets for heavy Smaller Weapons is probably more like the turrets for light Smaller Weapons, than turrets for spacecraft weapons.

Higher powers say:
Nerhesi wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:12 pm
I'm saying that a "smaller weapon", the fusion gun from Vehicle Weapons, which has Short range and Weighs 4 tons, is now the biggest and best weapon for small-craft - it does NOT take a firm point slots, ...
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: An Alphabet of Ships

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:08 pm

WingedCat wrote: Yinoti-class blockade runner, TL 15

Missile barbette (3*size reduced)_____________2_____6______0

Computer/20/bis_______________________________0_____7.5____0
Software: evade/3_____________________________0_____3______0
Barbette: 3.5 Dt = 5 Dt × 70%.

Computer can't run Evade/3 (bandwidth 25).
AnotherDilbert
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Re: An Alphabet of Ships

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:20 pm

WingedCat wrote: Zip class courier drone, TL 12
Streamlined hull (5 Hull)__________-10___0.6___2

Computer/5_________________________0_____0.05__0
4 Hull.

Computer: kCr 30.
Old School
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Re: An Alphabet of Ships

Postby Old School » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:04 pm

So putting aside for a moment that my interpretation is the one that actually makes sense. . .
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:53 pm
I believe the last paragraph just list the difference between light Smaller Weapons and heavy Smaller Weapons. I do not see hardpoints required for any ground scale weapon. The turrets for heavy Smaller Weapons is probably more like the turrets for light Smaller Weapons, than turrets for spacecraft weapons.

Higher powers say:
Nerhesi wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:12 pm
I'm saying that a "smaller weapon", the fusion gun from Vehicle Weapons, which has Short range and Weighs 4 tons, is now the biggest and best weapon for small-craft - it does NOT take a firm point slots, ...
You can believe that if you want, but you can't in good faith quote an author pointing out the issue to the publisher pre-publication, and then use that quote to as if it defends your point. What comes after the "..." in your quote from Nerhesi?
I'm saying that a "smaller weapon", the fusion gun from Vehicle Weapons, which has Short range and Weighs 4 tons, is now the biggest and best weapon for small-craft - it does NOT take a firm point slots, has longer ranger than any other weapon (on small craft), and out damages a pulse laser

I think the simplest way here is universally limiting the range of any "smaller weapon" to Close, and forcing them to take up a firm point slot in addition to the internal space. This applies to any weapon that is >1 ton
And in his very next post:
To be accurate though:

a) We know from last conversations that AP from Traveller Scale will not scale upwards. So the Fusion Cannons are just 3D. (unless Matt weighs in on otherwise , regardless, they will at least be divided by 10, so at most AP 3)
b) Weapons over 250kg (any of the crazy ones), take up space equal to their tonnage. Flat out equal. So 4 tons = 4dtons. So that is a good inefficiency.
c) Weapons over 250kg need to be mounted in turrets or fixed mounts. Which means, they will take up hardpoints - which don't exist on small craft. Even if you were to interpret they take up firmpoints, you'd have to apply firmpoint rules so they lose range and so on.

Still needs clarity though
And two posts later. . .
Actually you still do need hardpoints, I've bolded the other part of the sentence... Turrets and Fixed mounts, are by definition, Hard Points.
One more time for good measure:
Yeah covered that above in the previous reply Basically, your >250kg weapons just aren't "free"
I assume that you stopped reading once you found one sentence that appeared to back up your strange interpretation. Because otherwise your agument is disingenuous.

I still like WingCat's concept of the ship, but the design is illegal.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: An Alphabet of Ships

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:41 pm

Old School wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:04 pm
You can believe that if you want, but you can't in good faith quote an author pointing out the issue to the publisher pre-publication, and then use that quote to as if it defends your point.
I admit I didn't read the entire thread before posting the quote. But since the proposed change was rejected I rather think it supports my interpretation.

As far as I can see Nerhesi argued that Smaller Weapons did not require a Hardpoint, but they should, since they were invincible über-weapons.
Nerhesi wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:42 pm
This area needs a couple of minor additions Matt to avoid abuses:
...
b) For weapons greater than 250kg, in addition to consuming their weight in tonnage they will each require 1 Firmpoint on smallcraft. Larger craft exchange 1 Hardpoint for 3 Firmpoints (alignment)

I was thinking of this because of those potential abuses (read: me) who would want to put 4 sets of quad linked FGMPs on a smallcraft, then perhaps add a Fusion Gun-Z or a Meson Accelerator or something nutty like that. You want to stop those silly guys ;)

This allows the customization, without the pitfall of having space dominated by vehicle-weapon using craft.
Matt left it at:
msprange wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:32 pm
I think I will let these pass, actually...
Later Nerhesi explained (in another thread where I was very confused):
Nerhesi wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:29 am
3) Nope - as above. Keep in mind I have concerns about abuses here (because small weapons dont take up firmpoints or hardpoints slots. Matt said he prefers not to insert mechanics for this. I had recommended that we can simply state each small weapon (or group of them taking up to 1 ton) takes up a firmpoint (or hardpoint) slot; but he said he would put in some Refree-warning textbox about abuses.

The "Smaller Weapon" text box was not changed, so I assume the rule was not changed and no hard-/firmpoint is required.

Instead ground scale weapons were nerfed by removing the AP trait and Effect from damage. Ground Scale weapons are nearly useless in space combat (except with Nuclear Ammo).

If you want to add an Autocannon to your ship to discourage the riff-raff at the seedier starports, I see no problem with that and no need for it to cost a hardpoint.

Neither do I see much problem with adding a 60 Dt weapon that does 4D damage (without added Effect) at dogfighting range only. It's much too big to be an effective abuse.

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