Is SOC per society?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:33 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:11 am
He's part of the Victorian middle class. Due to his lack of spending Soc 6, but once he starts openly displaying his wealth by splashing the cash, dressing well, getting out and about his Soc may rise to the loft heights of 8. He doesn't make enough money to be upper middle class.
I think he is upper middle class. Scrooge has a chest full of coins that he likes to count, he realizes that he has to do business with important people in order to make money, so I guess he will spend a certain amount so they will not look down on him so they can do business together, but he is not happy about it! If he didn't have to live in a mansion and wear find clothes, then he wouldn't, and in any event, he would wear the cheapest fine clothes that he could buy. Scrooge is a compulsive bargain hunter, he hates to spend a penny more than he has to, and he does haggle everytime he makes a purchase, he has lots of money, but perhaps due to past financial insecurity in his family, he has a compulsion to horde money and keep it locked up in a secure place.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:36 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:39 pm
To be Soc 9+ in today's money you would have to be a minimum of a millionaire...
There are millionaires who don't show it! There are people who live in modest homes and drive around in cheap used cars but have millions of dollars in assets. You would never know they were millionaires by the way they live, they might even have a job and go to work regularly.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:38 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:29 am
Depends on the society.

In the good old US it is much easier to buy social position with wealth, in the UK you are still looked down upon by the nobility even if you have ten times their money - different societies different ways of recognising social status.
I met a noble once, he didn't seem to be a bad sort.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby legozhodani » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:21 pm

True, some of them are almost human, or at least are able to create the illusion of being one. I've worked with a few here and there. A good few of them in the UK are in relative terms, pretty poor. Much of the family wealth in property they can't sell, or land. Land in the rural areas that isn't always worth much. Guess they would be seen as richer by the Aslan!
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Garran » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:43 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:52 pm
Then that leads to the question of why have a SOC score when you can use money instead. One's position in a corporation is a matter of employment, basically what job he holds, such a person could lose his job tomorrow, the corporation could go belly up, there could be a run on its stocks in the stock market. Corporations are often here today and gone tomorrow, so a SOC score does not seem to be a stable thing if it is based on what the character owns or what job he holds. Also if you explore new worlds that have never heard of the society you comefrom, your SOC score is basically 0, while if you are dealing with humans, your charaisma score doesn't change.
To the extent that SoC is tied to your career, I'd say represents the level of job you're liable to hold regardless of the specific details or what happens to a specific one. IE: if you've ever been a corporate executive then you're going to be seen as someone of that standing (unless something dramatic happens to change that), and can probably get a comparable job at various corporate (or equivalent) entities when you want/need to.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby NOLATrav » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:50 am

Back when I first discovered Traveller I always thought Navy people were special and respected because they could get +1 SOC on the Personal Dev table. It definitely colored my view of the Imperium, such as it was (not having access to much at all except the Trav Book, Mercenary and High Guard in 1985).
Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:44 pm

Garran wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:43 pm
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:52 pm
Then that leads to the question of why have a SOC score when you can use money instead. One's position in a corporation is a matter of employment, basically what job he holds, such a person could lose his job tomorrow, the corporation could go belly up, there could be a run on its stocks in the stock market. Corporations are often here today and gone tomorrow, so a SOC score does not seem to be a stable thing if it is based on what the character owns or what job he holds. Also if you explore new worlds that have never heard of the society you comefrom, your SOC score is basically 0, while if you are dealing with humans, your charaisma score doesn't change.
To the extent that SoC is tied to your career, I'd say represents the level of job you're liable to hold regardless of the specific details or what happens to a specific one. IE: if you've ever been a corporate executive then you're going to be seen as someone of that standing (unless something dramatic happens to change that), and can probably get a comparable job at various corporate (or equivalent) entities when you want/need to.
Lets say you were an employer in the Traveller Universe, and you were considering two possible candidates, one of them had an average intelligence and a SOC of 15, the other had a SOC of 6 but an INT score of 15, which one would you hire?
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby legozhodani » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:51 pm

The SOC F. They will open doors for my company that the INT doesn't.
Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:55 pm

legozhodani wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:51 pm
The SOC F. They will open doors for my company that the INT doesn't.
And they may be sorry for that if he was a stupid and incompetant noble!
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Pyromancer » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:10 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:55 pm
legozhodani wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:51 pm
The SOC F. They will open doors for my company that the INT doesn't.
And they may be sorry for that if he was a stupid and incompetant noble!
The Imperium plays identity politics, too! Positions of power aren't primarily filled with competent people, but with loyal ones, people that are one of us. SOC is a measure of how much you identify and are identified with "the .01%".
What use is someone to the Emperor, who is hypercompetent, but does his own thing, and doesn't think of the Imperium as a whole? The Imperium can't supervise people, it has to trust them. And it is easier to trust cousin John, or Jim you shared a room with in boarding school, or this one guy your uncle recommends.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby steve98052 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:23 pm

Pyromancer wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:10 pm
. . . The Imperium can't supervise people, it has to trust them. And it is easier to trust cousin John, or Jim you shared a room with in boarding school, or this one guy your uncle recommends.
Or better still, that guy who enlisted in the Navy to get off his backwater world, was so good as an Engineering Hand Third Class that he was sent to Officer Candidate School, served aboard your ship while you were both emsigns, and retired as a Commander with a Purple Heart, a Medal for Conspicuous Gallantry, and a knighthood for that day in the Fourth Frontier War when he figured out how to tow your ship out of danger to rescue you and your crew.

In short, you can find loyal people, and you can find competent people, but if you're smart you promote the people who are both.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Pyromancer » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:29 pm

steve98052 wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:23 pm
Or better still, that guy who enlisted in the Navy to get off his backwater world, was so good as an Engineering Hand Third Class that he was sent to Officer Candidate School, served aboard your ship while you were both emsigns, and retired as a Commander with a Purple Heart, a Medal for Conspicuous Gallantry, and a knighthood for that day in the Fourth Frontier War when he figured out how to tow your ship out of danger to rescue you and your crew.

In short, you can find loyal people, and you can find competent people, but if you're smart you promote the people who are both.
Of course. The rules reflect this by tons of opportunities for +x SOC during character creation, especially in the Navy career.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:10 am

I'll throw out a Star Wars character
Thrawn.
Image

Does this guy have a high SOC score or a high INT score? And suppose there was a character like this in the Third Imperium. What do you think he might be doing if he got into the Imperium Navy?
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby legozhodani » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:25 pm

Also why would either the INT F or the SOC F work FOR YOU. Why a genius is working for you would/could be of some concern. I'm sticking with the SOC F. Also depends of so many other factors, such as what the job is, and personality. Nothing to say the INT F person isn't a total pain in the arse know it all who will tell you what your doing wrong all day, every day. Even phone you at 3am to say "I have an idea, deal with it now! Now! NOW!"
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:05 am

legozhodani wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:25 pm
Also why would either the INT F or the SOC F work FOR YOU. Why a genius is working for you would/could be of some concern. I'm sticking with the SOC F. Also depends of so many other factors, such as what the job is, and personality. Nothing to say the INT F person isn't a total pain in the arse know it all who will tell you what your doing wrong all day, every day. Even phone you at 3am to say "I have an idea, deal with it now! Now! NOW!"
The thing it the INT F person is likely to be right, and because he can't persuade you that he is right, he gets to say, "I told you so" when you don't listen! And imagine the SOC F admiral who commands a fleet and they suffer terrible losses and lose half the ships in an engagement, to a pirate fleet under the command of someone with an INT F. The pirate is a low class scumbag, and his ships aren't as good as the admirals, but he sure knows how to use them a lot better than "Admiral Highborn" does!
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby baithammer » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:14 am

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:10 am
I'll throw out a Star Wars character
Thrawn.
Image

Does this guy have a high SOC score or a high INT score? And suppose there was a character like this in the Third Imperium. What do you think he might be doing if he got into the Imperium Navy?
He has both as he has managed to rise to a position of power despite the Empires anti-non-human stance which would normally preclude him from being in the officer corp. ( Besides the Empire promotion path was mostly via ideology rather than merit.)
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:50 am

Thrawn rose to his position of power because of his merit, not because of who his parents were! Having a High SOC score is based on who your parents were, not how smart you are.

I'll give you an example of two Georges, George Washington and King George the Third, one led his troops into battle, the other sat on his throne from across the Atlantic. Now would you say that King George the Third, if we were to do a Traveller character of him, would have a higher SOC score than George Washington? What good did King George's high SOC score ever do him, it didn't win his war with the American colonists now did it!
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:19 am

Nope, the French assistance did that...
legozhodani
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby legozhodani » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:39 am

Well lets see what did King George's Soc F get him? An Empire as far as I can see. One that lasted longer than many, with various rebellions here and there. It got him the territory that rebelled in the first place. And after the loss of one territory he still had Soc F and held great sway (when he wasn't ill or mad as a box of frogs) Also, the position is Soc F as much as the person.

And yes, with out French aid (and Spanish and Dutch) the rebellion would have fizzled out within a year. It got that aid (from another SOC F Royal) and won.

Also we don't know what these INT F or SOC F have as an EDU stat. That makes a BIG differnce too.
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Re: Is SOC per society?

Postby baithammer » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:58 am

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:50 am
Thrawn rose to his position of power because of his merit, not because of who his parents were! Having a High SOC score is based on who your parents were, not how smart you are.

I'll give you an example of two Georges, George Washington and King George the Third, one led his troops into battle, the other sat on his throne from across the Atlantic. Now would you say that King George the Third, if we were to do a Traveller character of him, would have a higher SOC score than George Washington? What good did King George's high SOC score ever do him, it didn't win his war with the American colonists now did it!
George Washington came from gentry through his families purchase of land and forming relationships with the elites in the colonies, he didn't come from the commoners.

This also highlights what Soc is measuring, as even if you have high Soc it doesn't mean you are a noble.

The vast majority of the Soc ladder are those in service to the Nobility and the Emperor, through social climbing / raw talent / or by other means they have collected support from the nobility in order to climb the social standings.

As to King George, his Soc got him on the throne and all the perks that came with it.

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