Would it be a war-crime?

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JMISBEST
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Would it be a war-crime?

Postby JMISBEST » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:47 am

Would it be a war-crime if a war-ship destroyed A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship that unknown to its crew is in 1 sides territory and in the hope of making Pirates, Slavers and other criminals too scared of reprisals to attack was masquerading as a previously unknown Warship of the side that's the enemy of the side of the ship that destroyed?
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Sigtrygg » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:55 am

The USS Vincennes shot down a civilian Iranian passenger jet killing 290 people on board, including 66 children. This was not prosecuted as a war crime.

By the way, who in your setting has the authority to prosecute a state for war crimes?
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:01 am

JMISBEST wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:47 am
Would it be a war-crime if a war-ship destroyed A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship that unknown to its crew is in 1 sides territory and in the hope of making Pirates, Slavers and other criminals too scared of reprisals to attack was masquerading as a previously unknown Warship of the side that's the enemy of the side of the ship that destroyed?
I'm having trouble parsing this sentence, so it is hard to answer this question. So let me get this straight, a pirate ship is mascarading as a warship, what is this supposed to accomplish? Pirate ships typically are not as well armed as a warship, so if another warship blows up the pirate ship it is justified whether it thought it was an enemy warship or if it was a pirate ship. Pirate ships are lawbreakers, and to keep the space lanes safe, it is sometimes necessary to destroy a pirate ship. A pirate ship disguised as a warship is not going to be less of a target, nor do I know why it wants to be disguised as an enemy warship, do they want to die?
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby JMISBEST » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:00 am

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:01 am
JMISBEST wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:47 am
Would it be a war-crime if a war-ship destroyed A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship that unknown to its crew is in 1 sides territory and in the hope of making Pirates, Slavers and other criminals too scared of reprisals to attack was masquerading as a previously unknown Warship of the side that's the enemy of the side of the ship that destroyed?
I'm having trouble parsing this sentence, so it is hard to answer this question. So let me get this straight, a pirate ship is mascarading as a warship, what is this supposed to accomplish? Pirate ships typically are not as well armed as a warship, so if another warship blows up the pirate ship it is justified whether it thought it was an enemy warship or if it was a pirate ship. Pirate ships are lawbreakers, and to keep the space lanes safe, it is sometimes necessary to destroy a pirate ship. A pirate ship disguised as a warship is not going to be less of a target, nor do I know why it wants to be disguised as an enemy warship, do they want to die?
Its not A Pirate Ship Masquerading as A Military Ships its A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship disguised as and pretending to be A Military Ship, sadly of the nation that is their destroyers enemy nation in the hope of making Pirates, Slavers and other criminals too scared of reprisals to
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby M J Dougherty » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:26 am

If you want answers, you should write your questions in a way that makes them easy to understand.

It seems to be you're saying the destroyed ship was disguised as a belligerent and was destroyed in the belief that she was a hostile warship.

That's not a war crime.

It does suggest the owners of the disguised vessel were idiots, though.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby phavoc » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:30 pm

JMISBEST wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:00 am
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:01 am
JMISBEST wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:47 am
Would it be a war-crime if a war-ship destroyed A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship that unknown to its crew is in 1 sides territory and in the hope of making Pirates, Slavers and other criminals too scared of reprisals to attack was masquerading as a previously unknown Warship of the side that's the enemy of the side of the ship that destroyed?
I'm having trouble parsing this sentence, so it is hard to answer this question. So let me get this straight, a pirate ship is mascarading as a warship, what is this supposed to accomplish? Pirate ships typically are not as well armed as a warship, so if another warship blows up the pirate ship it is justified whether it thought it was an enemy warship or if it was a pirate ship. Pirate ships are lawbreakers, and to keep the space lanes safe, it is sometimes necessary to destroy a pirate ship. A pirate ship disguised as a warship is not going to be less of a target, nor do I know why it wants to be disguised as an enemy warship, do they want to die?
Its not A Pirate Ship Masquerading as A Military Ships its A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship disguised as and pretending to be A Military Ship, sadly of the nation that is their destroyers enemy nation in the hope of making Pirates, Slavers and other criminals too scared of reprisals to
Jeez... Please try to use better punctuation and stop the run-on questions. If you want to ask the community things that's fine. But please word them in such a way there aren't 20 run-on embedded questions within the same sentence.

As written your question cannot be answered because it can't be understood. You said "a war-ship destroyed A Armed and Armoured Civilian Ship that unknown to its crew"... WHO'S crew are we talking about here? The warship or the merchant? And which ship is in who's territory??

If I understand the poorly worded question, you are asking is it a war-crime if a military warship destroyed a civilian warship in order to intimidate criminals to not be criminals in the territory from which the warship came from? Beyond that the remaining part of your question is complete nonsense logically, so you'll have to ask it again in far more clear and concise way.

And a civilian ship disguised as a military ship? That's like a reverse Q-ship... a role that might be pulled off as long as nobody is shooting at you.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:07 pm

Not a war crime. Perfectly legal under the Articles of War signed on Beta Galapagos IV on the New Year 3223434234234.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Yatima » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:42 pm

M J Dougherty wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:26 am
If you want answers, you should write your questions in a way that makes them easy to understand.
I tried that approach:

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=121115&p=926891#top

It is 100% ineffective. My current theory is that he is a bot or possibly a Russian agent trying to turn traveller players against each other.

J
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby paltrysum » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:11 pm

Yatima wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:42 pm
It is 100% ineffective. My current theory is that he is a bot or possibly a Russian agent trying to turn traveller players against each other.
This possibility hadn't occurred to me. I think you're on to something there. If so, I have to hand it to them. Their operation is more comprehensive than I thought, extending all the way into niche RPG fan communities. 8)
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:24 am

Imagine the "Love Boat" being disguised to look like a Military Destroyer.
Image
Image
So how do you pull off this disguise?
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby AdrianH » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am

A better analogy might be the age of sail, when merchant ships sometimes had fake gun ports painted on the side to make them look like warships in the hope of discouraging pirates. If such a ship was then sunk on sight by an enemy real warship, that would not be a war crime.

Back to the original question: a civilian starship has been disguised to appear like a warship, then sent into the territory of one of the belligerents in a war, and the crew know nothing of this. Setting aside that the crew must be blind and stupid, and the astrogator incompetent beyond belief to not know where the ship is going, I'd say that a crime has indeed been committed - and it wasn't the attacking warship which committed it. The criminal is whoever set up the ship to look military and then sent it into a war zone.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Pyromancer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:07 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:24 am
So how do you pull off this disguise?
You slap together a radio device that emits a frequency pattern similar to a warship's radar and fake the IFF transponder.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby JMISBEST » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:14 pm

AdrianH wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am
A better analogy might be the age of sail, when merchant ships sometimes had fake gun ports painted on the side to make them look like warships in the hope of discouraging pirates. If such a ship was then sunk on sight by an enemy real warship, that would not be a war crime.

Back to the original question: a civilian starship has been disguised to appear like a warship, then sent into the territory of one of the belligerents in a war, and the crew know nothing of this. Setting aside that the crew must be blind and stupid, and the astrogator incompetent beyond belief to not know where the ship is going, I'd say that a crime has indeed been committed - and it wasn't the attacking warship which committed it. The criminal is whoever set up the ship to look military and then sent it into a war zone.
I like the idea that it was a insurance job of some sorts, but the Warships Crews where too trigger happy and got a lucky critical on a vital part that if it hadn't been a critical would have destroyed it but not before most of the crew would have had time to get into the escape pods and get to a safe distance from the ship before it blew up
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby steve98052 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:24 am
Imagine the "Love Boat" being disguised to look like a Military Destroyer.
There is a real life example of something like this. As the Soviet Union was breaking up, someone bought a surplus Soviet Navy icebreaker, and converted it into a cruise ship for Antarctica cruises. Even if the guns were removed, it probably still looked a lot like a Soviet Navy icebreaker.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:44 pm

I guess the topic thread is trying to elicit a value judgement, and we are supposed to debate whether we should have it in our role playing session.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby legozhodani » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:53 am

Sounds to me as someone with no internal moral compass floundering for a direction. However, some interesting discusions and replies.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby M J Dougherty » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:29 pm

The first question when asking about a situation like this is... would anyone by stupid enough to do this?

Which seems unlikely.
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Re: Would it be a war-crime?

Postby Condottiere » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:15 pm

You need a recognized entity that recognizes these as war crimes and is prepared to prosecute the culprits.

The Russians have shot down any number of civilian planes, though in the last instance, have made the effort to hide their trac(tor)s, since unlike the United States, sanctions do have an effect on their economy and wallets of their elite.

Anyone not having the status of a Great/Super Power, or without that protective embrace, will likely get their ass hauled to the Hague.

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