Can they legally do this?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
JMISBEST
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Can they legally do this?

Postby JMISBEST » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:33 pm

Here's 2 questions regarding someone knowing a person can do something but can't prove it that may 1 day pop up in my or someone I know's RPG's. Can you help?

A Semi-professional Sportsmen wants to buy A Sports Rifle and owns license but can't prove it and the seller somehow knows he has a license but can't prove it can he sell based on his personnel knowledge

If someone is legally old enough to buy Wine but doesn't look old enough to and can't prove she is and the shopkeeper knows she is old enough to buy Wine but doesn't look old enough to and can't prove she is can he sell based on his personnel knowledge
baithammer
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:21 am

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby baithammer » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:52 pm

IF you don't show a license then its illegal to sell a licensed item.
MonkeyX
Mongoose
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:52 am

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby MonkeyX » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:41 pm

Has anyone EVER had this come up in their Traveller games?
JMISBEST
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby JMISBEST » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:26 pm

baithammer wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:52 pm
IF you don't show a license then its illegal to sell a licensed item.
Even if the seller knows with 100% certainty that the buyer has a license?. I'm thinking depends on The Worlds Law Level but wanted A 2nd opinion
Pyromancer
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:12 pm

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby Pyromancer » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:15 pm

We have around 200 different law systems on Earth alone. It depends on what is written in the law, and how it is interpreted. Where I live, you aren't allowed to sell wine to minors, but you don't have to verify the age. But if you DO sell wine to minors and get caught, "they looked old enough, and I didn't check their age" isn't an excuse. It's your responsibility as the vendor, and if you are 100% percent sure (perhaps because you checked that person's age on a previous transaction and remember it), there won't be a problem.

Licences are different, because licences can be revoked. A person could have been allowed to buy a firearm yesterday, and isn't allowed to buy one today. Where I live, buying a firearm without bringing the licence would be impossible, because the vendor has to record what kind of firearm you bought from him on your licence. And even the slightest suspicion on his trustworthiness can lose him his business, so he won't cut corners.
Old School
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:41 pm

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby Old School » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:20 pm

My sources say no
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3402
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Location: Arlington, TX USA

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:59 am

JMISBEST wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:26 pm
baithammer wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:52 pm
IF you don't show a license then its illegal to sell a licensed item.
Even if the seller knows with 100% certainty that the buyer has a license?. I'm thinking depends on The Worlds Law Level but wanted A 2nd opinion
As someone who used to sell in BOTH of these situations in the USA.

No, neither is legal to sell to. If they cannot PROVE they have the license, are of legal age, then YOU get it trouble.

The exception MIGHT be the liquor one. If I saw their ID earlier, then I wouldn't ask again. BUT, on a different night, they would have to show me again... Cops like to do spot checks in bars. If you have a drink and don't have ID and look under age - the servers get busted.
My friends call me Richard.
You can call me Sir.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3402
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Location: Arlington, TX USA

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:59 am

JMISBEST wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:26 pm
baithammer wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:52 pm
IF you don't show a license then its illegal to sell a licensed item.
Even if the seller knows with 100% certainty that the buyer has a license?. I'm thinking depends on The Worlds Law Level but wanted A 2nd opinion
As someone who used to sell in BOTH of these situations in the USA.

No, neither is legal to sell to. If they cannot PROVE they have the license, are of legal age, then YOU get it trouble.

The exception MIGHT be the liquor one. If I saw their ID earlier, then I wouldn't ask again. BUT, on a different night, they would have to show me again... Cops like to do spot checks in bars. If you have a drink and don't have ID and look under age - the servers get busted.

Your Traveller Universe might vary. Law Level would be your guide.
My friends call me Richard.
You can call me Sir.
steve98052
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:13 am
Location: near Seattle

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby steve98052 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:34 pm

Long ago, I was in Austria with some friends, and a couple of the friends had their 15 year old son with them. We were at a restaurant, and the fifteen-year-old said to the waiter, "I'm 15. Am I old enough to drink here?"

The waiter replied, "Because you already told me your age, I can't serve you, because the drinking age here is 16. But if you hadn't already told me you were 15, I could have taken your word that you were 16."

- - -

That's very different from here in Washington State,* where waiters are always required to ask for proof of age. When my wife and I went to a public party, when she was about 40, a gatekeeper asked her for proof of age.

She had left it at home by mistake. She tried to persuade the gatekeeper that she was old enough, and told the gate key for her age, and pointed out that she wouldn't be there with someone my age if she were under-age herself.

The gatekeeper replied that he believed her, but he could lose his job, get fined, possibly go to jail, and possibly get the whole event shut down, if you were to let her in without showing proof of age.

Iwent in on my own for a little while, so I could tell her what it was like. She gave her ticket to some random stranger, and waited at a coffee shop. It was quite disappointing; I think she really would have enjoyed it, and I certainly would have enjoyed staying there longer -- but not with her outside waiting for me.

* And it may be different in Austria today; I don't know, but times change.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 6386
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby Condottiere » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:15 pm

It's very dependent on the local law level and cultural norms.

I would suspect that a twelve year old on a frontier world could get hold of a hunting rifle, no questions asked.
Garran
Weasel
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Can they legally do this?

Postby Garran » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:22 pm

Both of these are going to depend heavily on the specifics of the laws in question.

If you personally know the individual, and are aware of their age/license status, then an attestation might be enough to deflect legal trouble in some places, especially if it's a low law level area. It's not going to be the safe legal option, regardless.

In the case of the firearms license it also depends on what exactly a license entails in that area. Some places might care mostly about whether you have the basic knowledge to not blow your own face off by accident, rather than what you might do with it deliberately, in which case demonstrating competence at the time could stand in its stead. (IIRC there's one store like this in the Going Portside book.)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests