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Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:12 pm
by arcador
While I see how non-military vessels will have people loading the missile racks in the feeder, I assume there is technology which doesn't require personnel.

Do we have such systems in the previous editions/versions of Traveller? If so, how does it operate?

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:49 pm
by AnotherDilbert
They are implied, but not detailed, as far as I can remember. Not even in TNE...

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:15 pm
by Condottiere
Well, assumed, rather than implied.

With turrets, and presumably barbettes, I suppose there's either a lot of hauling going on, or the gunner flips a switch and the rack gets refilled.

The missile magazine has to be accessible and/or linked.

Again, presumably a similar arrangement with the bays. Or not.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:06 pm
by phavoc
Magazines as such aren't detailed out. It may be easier to imagine something along the lines of a rotary magazine like the OHP class frigates of the USN. It had about a 50 round magazine and the various types of missiles were loaded automatically based on the firing mission. Loading only occurred outside of combat. The original idea of loading them inbetween rounds like you would do a breach loaded cannon were silly.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:14 pm
by Condottiere
I base my concept of fixed mounted torpedo tube corvettes on that premise.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:25 am
by Reynard
If I expect a design to possibly have missile launchers, sandcasters, mass drivers or railguns, there is always an ammunition hold adjacent to the turret location and I assume an auto loader is part of the package. Also make a great broom closet if no ammo need.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:56 am
by Condottiere
I think the rate of fire is somewhat above one per six minutes.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:59 am
by baithammer
Here's another way of looking at this.

Space dedicated to missile storage have autoloaders ( Hence why they have a separate entry.), missiles stored in cargo don't.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:16 am
by arcador
It's a good rule - simple.

As I recall, ship's stats have specific ton size for the ammo.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:25 pm
by Condottiere
They don't have to be round.

Probably have to refer back to Fire Fusion Steel and see how they describe it.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:11 pm
by SSWarlock
phavoc wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:06 pm
Magazines as such aren't detailed out. It may be easier to imagine something along the lines of a rotary magazine like the OHP class frigates of the USN.
I believe the MgT supplement for Darrians does include the description of a rotary magazine for a Darrian ship's launcher..as well as stealth torpedoes.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:07 pm
by phavoc
Best way to fix this would be for MGT to actually clarify missiles and magazines. The 1 ton set aside for fire control and such is also tapped for on-mount missile storage. Weapon mounts already magically don't take up any space, so I'm ok using the rule to allow for 1 round stored on-mount for no cost.

But beyond that there needs to be a loading mechanism and a magazine adjacent to the missile mount. There's nothing wrong with a paragraph of details. It would solve a lot of issues.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:12 am
by Reynard
Since the beginning with CT, I always assumed that one ton space was for all the mechanisms a turret could pack in up to three energy weapons. Missile launchers would have integral automated loading ability IF tied into an adjacent ammo hold(s) whereas energy weapons would need that space for capacitors and such. If the ammo hold isn't adjacent, you're walking those missiles and canisters to the launcher. That's why I always allocate space for where the turret will be and if I decide the design will expect use of launchers, there is also dedicated tonnage to an ammo hold which can double for any other use until needed.... closet space. For ease of play, I assume the racks holding missiles, torpedoes and canisters are designed to link to the auto-loader mechanism. The rack becomes part of the loader mechanism.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:16 am
by phavoc
CT had the gunner manually loading the missile launcher, too. I don't recall when it was finally discussed about how many missiles the turret actually held. Maybe the missile supplement? I would have to go look.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:30 am
by AnotherDilbert
phavoc wrote: CT had the gunner manually loading the missile launcher, too. I don't recall when it was finally discussed about how many missiles the turret actually held.

LBB2, p32 wrote:Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:39 am
by AnotherDilbert
Reynard wrote: Since the beginning with CT, I always assumed that one ton space was for all the mechanisms a turret could pack in up to three energy weapons. Missile launchers would have integral automated loading ability IF tied into an adjacent ammo hold(s) whereas energy weapons would need that space for capacitors and such. If the ammo hold isn't adjacent, you're walking those missiles and canisters to the launcher.
Much in the same way I assumed civilian ships that just added a turret had to load manually, while purpose-built (military) ships had auto-loaders and dedicated magazines.

Extra missiles carried as cargo still had to be manually loaded into the magazines.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:12 pm
by phavoc
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:30 am
LBB2, p32 wrote:Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.
Yeah, that never made any sense. That means the turret had 3/4 of a Dton in missiles not taking up any spaces. So the 1 ton for the hardpoint allows for 1 ton of fire control, a triple turret, up to 3 weapons, and up to 3/4 of a ton of ammuntion.
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:39 am
Much in the same way I assumed civilian ships that just added a turret had to load manually, while purpose-built (military) ships had auto-loaders and dedicated magazines.

Extra missiles carried as cargo still had to be manually loaded into the magazines.
Well, sure. Anything carried as cargo has to be moved from the cargo hold to somewhere else. Same goes for spare parts or rations.

But these are supposed to be ships set in the future with lots of techno gadgets. Breechloaders went out in the 1950s (unless you are tube artillery, and even some of those have autoloaders). Plus a magazine has all kinds of other protections a cargo hold doesn't to protect the very delicate cargo inside. It is considered a bad thing (TM) if your cargo hold explodes on you. Magazines can at least be designed to channel the force of detonation outwards - another reason to have them located next to your launcher on the outer hull.

Computers used to take up large amounts of space, but they were literally patterned after the massive mainframes of the 1970s. If they can be brought up to date why can't other items?

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:47 pm
by AnotherDilbert
phavoc wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:12 pm
Yeah, that never made any sense. That means the turret had 3/4 of a Dton in missiles not taking up any spaces. So the 1 ton for the hardpoint allows for 1 ton of fire control, a triple turret, up to 3 weapons, and up to 3/4 of a ton of ammuntion.
The turret and its content takes up no space whatsoever, it only the fire control that takes space in CT. Note that missiles are only 50 kg in CT, so should be something like 100 missiles (with packaging) per Dt.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:05 pm
by Condottiere
My calculation was three launchers and nine missiles within half a tonne.

And the Darrian description implies that rotary launchers weren't usual in the local navies, or the Zhodani and the Imperium ones.

Re: Missiles auto-loader?

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:20 am
by phavoc
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:47 pm
phavoc wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:12 pm
Yeah, that never made any sense. That means the turret had 3/4 of a Dton in missiles not taking up any spaces. So the 1 ton for the hardpoint allows for 1 ton of fire control, a triple turret, up to 3 weapons, and up to 3/4 of a ton of ammuntion.
The turret and its content takes up no space whatsoever, it only the fire control that takes space in CT. Note that missiles are only 50 kg in CT, so should be something like 100 missiles (with packaging) per Dt.
I'm going by the 12 missile per 1Dton. Though I'm not sure if the 12 missiles per ton changed. Looking at the V2 CRB it states that each turret can hold one or more missile racks, and it holds 12 missiles (apparently regardless of the number of missile racks). For sandcasters it's 20 per turret. So I'm guessing the storage issue is now at the turret level instead of the launcher level. I don't have my HG handy at the moment.