Training stats

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
JNJ
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Training stats

Postby JNJ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:07 am

Hi,

I understand how skills can be trained (MGT 2nd edition).

Should I also understand that character stats (Str, Dex, End, ...) can be trained the same way ? (excluding Int and Soc ?). The paragraph about training leaves me in doubt.

Or can't they be trained ? (Implants are good for you !)

Thanks for helping.
JN
MonkeyX
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Re: Training stats

Postby MonkeyX » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:14 am

This was going to be my next question. Two of my players rolled a few 4s in character creation.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Training stats

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:38 am

The training procedure on p52 only covers skills, not characteristics.

I agree that physical characteristics should be trainable, but I would consider it an ongoing process to increase a characteristics and keep it increased. If you stop training the characteristic would revert to its original value.

I would use something like:
+1: Spend a few hours in the gym every week.
+2: Spend an hour or two in the gym most days.
+3: Spend a few hours in the gym every day.

So, most characters could train a few +1, or even a +2, but a +3 (or several +2) would preclude other activities, such as a regular job or training skills.

This will allow player characters to be quite a lot fitter than average, but I do not see that as a problem...
JNJ
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Re: Training stats

Postby JNJ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:54 am

Thanks for your feedback Another Dilbert !

I was thinking to adapt the skill training system :

- 8 weeks (1 study period) to train (rise 1 point) if stat under 7. Twice between 7 and 9 (2 training periods) and thrice (3 training periods) above 9.
- A limit of +3 points compared to initial stat.
- An advancement test at the end of the training period under the trained stat (easy-average-difficult...depending on the initial stat level). Success rises by stat 1 otherwise, you just maintain.
- A roll of 2 lowers the stat by 1 (injury during training, etc...).

I was thinking that way, to find something directly derivated from the way the rules are made.

Would it work ?

Best,
JNJ

PS : sorry for my english...foreign language - 0
PsiTraveller
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Re: Training stats

Postby PsiTraveller » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:24 pm

I think it could be the implant route to improve physical stats.
You might allow a stem cell process (Banned for competitive athletes) that improves a stat by + 1 or +2
JNJ
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Re: Training stats

Postby JNJ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:58 pm

Hi PsiTraveller,

Thanks, I like the idea of stem cell process !

But I also think some stats can be trained (Strength or End can be developped by training in real life...1 to 3 points max I would say) and as stated by Another Dilbert, can also go back to normal if training stops.

Anybody made house rules about this ? Or any old JTAS (or other) article on this topic ?
PsiTraveller
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Re: Training stats

Postby PsiTraveller » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:22 pm

A ship might have a weight room and treadmill on board to allow strength and endurance training for the time in Jumpspace. Have a bunch of Keto eating buff players running around doing interstellar cross fit between planets.
DickTurpin
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Re: Training stats

Postby DickTurpin » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:04 pm

There ought to be ways to increase any characteristic. Nearly all careers allow stat increases instead of skills if the player selects the Personal Development table during character generation. If there is a game mechanic, no matter how abstract, to increase stats in chargen and well established real life techniques for increasing those abilities, then it ought to be possible to gain increases during play.

The easiest way to reflect stat increases within the current rules would be to allow a bonus equal to the character's Athletics (characteristic) skill for the related characteristic in skill rolls. That option will work for physical stats, but does not address mental characteristics. It also effectively doubles the Athletics skill rating for traditional Athletics skill uses.

A better solution would be to adapt the existing Training rules to apply to characteristics as well. I would suggest using the characteristic DM of the level desired as the equivalent of the skill level for time requirement for each level. Any stat up to seven can be increased by one after eight weeks and a successful (8+) roll with that characteristic. To reflect the relative difficulty of further improvement, double the characteristic DM can be used as a negative DM for the roll, making it easier to raise very low stats, but more difficult (and much more time consuming) to raise high ones.
JNJ
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Re: Training stats

Postby JNJ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:59 pm

DickTurpin wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:04 pm
There ought to be ways to increase any characteristic. Nearly all careers allow stat increases instead of skills if the player selects the Personal Development table during character generation. If there is a game mechanic, no matter how abstract, to increase stats in chargen and well established real life techniques for increasing those abilities, then it ought to be possible to gain increases during play.

The easiest way to reflect stat increases within the current rules would be to allow a bonus equal to the character's Athletics (characteristic) skill for the related characteristic in skill rolls. That option will work for physical stats, but does not address mental characteristics. It also effectively doubles the Athletics skill rating for traditional Athletics skill uses.

A better solution would be to adapt the existing Training rules to apply to characteristics as well. I would suggest using the characteristic DM of the level desired as the equivalent of the skill level for time requirement for each level. Any stat up to seven can be increased by one after eight weeks and a successful (8+) roll with that characteristic. To reflect the relative difficulty of further improvement, double the characteristic DM can be used as a negative DM for the roll, making it easier to raise very low stats, but more difficult (and much more time consuming) to raise high ones.
Indeed, it is what started my reflexion...possibility to increase stats during careers + real life training.

Linking it to Athletic skill for physical stats improvement seems necessary as, whatever the way I try to imagine it, I find athletics are always involved during those skills training ... Maybe as a DM ?

The last solution you propose is elegant and fully compatible with skill training rules. I keep it in mind.

Remains the question of decreasing...but we could consider it already taken care of with injuries on one side and ageing on the other.

That said, for Educ for example, that seems a too short time scale to gain a point.
If we refer to the Personal development table, a character could develop around 2 points max in a 4 years terms ... and wouldn't develop any other skills.

As a side note another post reminds me about people practicing jogging in the battleship of "Battlestar Galactica" ... or IIRC in the ship of 2001 : "A Space Odissey"

Thanks !
JNJ
RogerMc
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Re: Training stats

Postby RogerMc » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:32 pm

I'd suggest the training period is based on the stat you are raising to but is x 50s of hours and requires all appropriate space and equipment.

I'd also suggest that to be effective you must do at least 1% of the total training period per week.

So raising STR from 7 to 8 requires 8 x 50 = 400 hours of STR training with at least 4 hours taken each week.

I'd also insist there on the 4 hours per week being maintained even after the new stat has been achieved or it will degrade again
after a certain time.
MonkeyX
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Re: Training stats

Postby MonkeyX » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:40 pm

I’d actually limit it to a max 8 hrs a day, maybe less or a character can increase stats after a few jumps providing they have an empty cargo bay to run around it.
Condottiere
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Re: Training stats

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:12 am

Optionally, you could temporarily boost a characteristic during a continuing training programme.
PsiTraveller
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Re: Training stats

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:44 am

The physical stats are worth 0.5 milllion for a +1, 1 million for a +2 and 5 million for a +3 increase. This is from the central supply catalogue. The same price applies for int. The fabulous boost is 3.5 million for a +1 social bonus.

So self training could save millions, so make it worth it to the player.
steve98052
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Re: Training stats

Postby steve98052 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:58 pm

All six characteristics can be improved during character generation, both on the personal development tables and with mustering out rolls. (I would think that most mustering out characteristic and skill grants are supposed to have happened during service, even though they're only added to the character sheet at mustering out.) To define rules for characteristic (and skill) gains during play, it's reasonable to set a cap comparable to getting good rolls in character generation.

During character generation, one can gain a single characteristic or skill by making it through a term without a failed survival roll (analogous in play to avoiding any wounds that reduce a characteristic to zero in the whole term, or maybe avoiding two characteristics to zero). Rank increases sometimes include an automatic bonus skill for certain ranks; those could be granted for comparable jobs in play. And since the mustering out characteristic and skill bonuses happen as alternatives to cash or item grants, a game-master might award them as consolation prizes for characters that don't get a lot of good stuff.

My point is that there's a limit of about two characteristics and skills per term during character generation, and that it is reduced by severe mishaps, so that's probably a good guide to how long it takes to gain them during play.
IssuesMan
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Re: Training stats

Postby IssuesMan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:20 pm

My house rule for that is players can attempt to increase their stats with study period of 8 weeks with an average (8) difficulty rolled with the stat they are trying to develop. They have to spend a minimum of one study period plus their current bonus. (If I have an 11 Endurance that I'm trying to raise to 12, I have to spend 2 study periods before I roll a check with an End(8) difficulty.) However, if any of their stats are lost due to aging, the cap of 15 is also lowered by however much they lost. My players can not cross fit their way into immortality. :D I apply this to all stats except Social. Social I only give as an in game reward.
JNJ
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Re: Training stats

Postby JNJ » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:43 pm

Meanwhile, I found that the problem was already addressed in CT LBB2 !
Training time and material availability are naturally both essential, and below paragraph from LBB2 doesn't seem to contradict above suggestions (I would discard the Int DM) :

"Physical Fitness: Because many individuals find a regimen of physical conditioning
unrewarding intellectually, a dedication throw of 8+ is required (DMs
of +2 if intelligence 8-, and 4 if intelligence 5-). If the throw is achieved, the
character increases his three physical characteristics (strength, endurance, and
dexterity) each by 1. This increase remains in effect for the duration of the physical
fitness program. Physical characteristics may never be increased to more than 15.
The pursuit of a program envisions that the required materials will be available
on a regular basis. If the required materials are not available, the program is suspended
temporarily, but the benefits are not lost if the suspension is of less than 3 months
duration."
Condottiere
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Re: Training stats

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:20 am

You'd also want a personal trainer, with a high degree of skill and instruction.

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