Setting up a new Colony

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
PsiTraveller
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Setting up a new Colony

Postby PsiTraveller » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:43 am

On a low tech world out in the wilds, what is to prevent a higher population world from setting up a colony on a lower population world in some unpopulated corner of it?

Look at Drinax and Asim. There are just 200 000 Asim citizens on a planet. Drinax could open up a colony city/province on another continent, or other side of the world and start extracting resources or growing more food.

Who would stop them?

In Imperial space how is the flow of people controlled from planet to planet?
Reynard
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Reynard » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:49 am

Considering war is tolerated, imperialism between worlds may get the pass too. 11,000 worlds is a big universe and the Imperium can't bother to be everywhere. This is what makes Traveller adventurous.
Condottiere
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Condottiere » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:57 am

Sounds like a violation of planetary sovereignty, assuming the offended world is a member of the Imperium.

Probably easier to bribe the local politicians in leaving legal loopholes that foreign corporations, shell, proxies or otherwise, can exploit.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:34 am

The Imperium does not do world police work, for the most part.
Hakkonen
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Hakkonen » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:34 am

Reynard wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:49 am
Considering war is tolerated
Come again? If warfare among member worlds is tolerated, then what, exactly, does the Imperium do?
Reynard
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Reynard » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:40 am

A lot but because of its size a lot slips between any iron grasp of control. That's why the Imperium gives a lot of leeway locally and war is sometimes the steam valve. Much security is local or maybe by subsector/sector forces. The Imperium may control the space between planets doesn't mean they have the resources to be everywhere solving every problem. Away from commercial/xboat main routes, the universe can get wild.
phavoc
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby phavoc » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:56 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:43 am
On a low tech world out in the wilds, what is to prevent a higher population world from setting up a colony on a lower population world in some unpopulated corner of it?

Look at Drinax and Asim. There are just 200 000 Asim citizens on a planet. Drinax could open up a colony city/province on another continent, or other side of the world and start extracting resources or growing more food.

Who would stop them?

In Imperial space how is the flow of people controlled from planet to planet?
There is nothing really to stop a world from setting up another colony. But under Imperial law that other world, even one with a low TL, can claim sovereignty over the settlement. And no world is allowed to own another world, so that colony could go independent as well. The colonizing world could attempt to escalate things militarily, just like the lower TL world could hire mercs to evict the colonists or seize the colony.

I have not seen much material that discusses intersystem (or even intrasystem) emigration/immigration. Stuff just happens as far as the rules go.
Reynard wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:40 am
A lot but because of its size a lot slips between any iron grasp of control. That's why the Imperium gives a lot of leeway locally and war is sometimes the steam valve. Much security is local or maybe by subsector/sector forces. The Imperium may control the space between planets doesn't mean they have the resources to be everywhere solving every problem. Away from commercial/xboat main routes, the universe can get wild.
Yes, the Imperium isn't a police state. It's more like a confederacy where the central government strongly enforces it's power and leaves the remaining issues up to the local worlds. In this way it operates like feudal states did, where the King did have primacy, but he was also somewhat limited in just how much he could make his nobility do before they revolted. Individually he (usually) had the power to crush one, but if he antagonized enough of them he would lose (his head, his life, his throne). That sort of government worked, but not terribly well and it only worked because so many other areas were neglected. I'm not sure it would work as well in modern times, but since we are discussing a game it's a setting that will provide more opportunities for conflict for PC's.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:57 pm

Hakkonen wrote: Come again? If warfare among member worlds is tolerated, then what, exactly, does the Imperium do?
See the Imperial Rules of War

phavoc wrote: And no world is allowed to own another world, ...
The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Governmental Entities superior to the member worlds but subordinate to the Imperium. This shall include the power to abolish said entities as the Imperium sees fit.
Warrant of Restoration

Bribe the right nobles and you can do almost whatever you want?
Hakkonen
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Hakkonen » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:25 pm

phavoc wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:56 pm
Reynard wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:40 am
A lot but because of its size a lot slips between any iron grasp of control. That's why the Imperium gives a lot of leeway locally and war is sometimes the steam valve. Much security is local or maybe by subsector/sector forces. The Imperium may control the space between planets doesn't mean they have the resources to be everywhere solving every problem. Away from commercial/xboat main routes, the universe can get wild.
Yes, the Imperium isn't a police state. It's more like a confederacy where the central government strongly enforces it's power and leaves the remaining issues up to the local worlds. In this way it operates like feudal states did, where the King did have primacy, but he was also somewhat limited in just how much he could make his nobility do before they revolted. Individually he (usually) had the power to crush one, but if he antagonized enough of them he would lose (his head, his life, his throne). That sort of government worked, but not terribly well and it only worked because so many other areas were neglected. I'm not sure it would work as well in modern times, but since we are discussing a game it's a setting that will provide more opportunities for conflict for PC's.
I don't know what your definition of a police state is, but as authoritarian edicts go, banning internecine warfare is quite low on the scale. One might even say it's the bare minimum required to claim any sort of governance at all.
Reynard
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Reynard » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:07 pm

"Bribe the right nobles and you can do almost whatever you want?"

Sounds very.... familiar. Reality stranger than fiction?
phavoc
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby phavoc » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:32 pm

Hakkonen wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:25 pm

I don't know what your definition of a police state is, but as authoritarian edicts go, banning internecine warfare is quite low on the scale. One might even say it's the bare minimum required to claim any sort of governance at all.
It doesn't ban wars between planets or even corporations, but it does place rules around it. Feudalism and democracy both can claim governance models. How they go about it are different.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:05 pm

Reynard wrote: "Bribe the right nobles and you can do almost whatever you want?"

Sounds very.... familiar. Reality stranger than fiction?
Humans are humans...
Condottiere
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Condottiere » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:45 pm

I'm sure a large interstellar corporation could arrange some form of extraterritoriality, a higher form of a tax free special economic zone.

Then import workmen from back home.

Extend that extraterritoriality until it's like a right of way.
Hakkonen
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Hakkonen » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:28 am

phavoc wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:32 pm
Feudalism and democracy both can claim governance models. How they go about it are different.
I'm not sure what your point is. Whether I'm King or President, I may claim to govern Ashire and Bshire, but if I can't get them to stop fighting and be part of a unified Ctania, then in what sense do I actually govern them?
Annatar Giftbringer
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:54 am

They both pay you tax, and provide trade opportunities? And when their little war threatens either, the imperium sends a punitive expedition?
phavoc
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby phavoc » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:50 pm

Hakkonen wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:28 am
phavoc wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:32 pm
Feudalism and democracy both can claim governance models. How they go about it are different.
I'm not sure what your point is. Whether I'm King or President, I may claim to govern Ashire and Bshire, but if I can't get them to stop fighting and be part of a unified Ctania, then in what sense do I actually govern them?
You had said, "I don't know what your definition of a police state is, but as authoritarian edicts go, banning internecine warfare is quite low on the scale. One might even say it's the bare minimum required to claim any sort of governance at all."

So... whether you are King of Ashire, or President of Bshire, both forms of government can claim to be a government. Both can ban internal warfare, etc, etc. And both forms of government can get small parties to stop fighting through a variety of means, including force. And both can govern. And both can push their governed people into a violent overthrow of the current government.
Hakkonen wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:34 am
Reynard wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:49 am
Considering war is tolerated
Come again? If warfare among member worlds is tolerated, then what, exactly, does the Imperium do?
War is tolerated within the Imperium for a variety of reasons. The first being that governing such a large and diverse population is difficult at best. There are many competing religious, economical and planetary interests. As well as nobles and megacorps fighting with each other for power and money. Limited warfare allows for internal pressure to bleed off before it totally blows off the lid of peace. Which is why there are rules of war in place that are enforced by the Imperium. No planetary government or megacorp can stand against the Imperial military might. So all parties know violation of the rules invites defeat.

Plus, it's a game. Creating a governmental model that allows for conflict allows for more gaming opportunities.
Hakkonen
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Hakkonen » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:06 am

phavoc wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:50 pm
So... whether you are King of Ashire, or President of Bshire, both forms of government can claim to be a government. Both can ban internal warfare, etc, etc. And both forms of government can get small parties to stop fighting through a variety of means, including force. And both can govern. And both can push their governed people into a violent overthrow of the current government.
Now I'm dead certain that you didn't actually read my post. In this scenario, I am not the ruler of Ashire OR Bshire, but of Ashire AND Bshire, both provinces of Ctania. Once more: if I can't get Ashire and Bshire to stop fighting each other, whether by legal means, diplomacy, or military force, then in what sense do I rule either of them?

Put another way: if the Spinward Marches goes to war with the Trojan Reach, and the Imperial military and/or government lacks either the ability or the will to stop them, then for all practical purposes there is no Imperium. There may be a guy who calls himself the Emperor, but if nobody recognizes his authority, or if he lacks authority in the first place, he's just a guy with a fancy hat.
Reynard
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Reynard » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:30 am

When entire subsectors or sectors become embroiled in fighting, and that means subsector fleets are in the middle, you have now made yourself very well noticed and brought the attention of the Imperium in a big way. Now you're going to see The Flag of the Imperium over worlds because you are causing major disruptions. That's economics and politics. We often see that on present day Earth.
PsiTraveller
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:31 pm

What about the Sindal or Tlaiowaha Sector, where there is no imperial involvement? The King of Drinax might well grant a Crown Grant of land on the far side of Asim in exchange for income from taxes and a percentage of whatever is produced on the planet. Asim population is minimal, so there is a whole planet waiting for people.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
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Re: Setting up a new Colony

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:31 pm
What about the Sindal or Tlaiowaha Sector, where there is no imperial involvement? The King of Drinax might well grant a Crown Grant of land on the far side of Asim in exchange for income from taxes and a percentage of whatever is produced on the planet. Asim population is minimal, so there is a whole planet waiting for people.
There is nothing stopping this from happening. Who's to say it hasn't already happened. You know how long it can take to updated those interstellar records... :)

I like to play with the Balkanized government code (GOV 7) and consider most of them to be "double-colonized".
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