Misjumps by fleets?

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HalC
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Misjumps by fleets?

Postby HalC » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:37 pm

Hello Folks,
I was struck by an odd thought...

If a fleet attempts to jump together, and the primary ship misjumps - does the rest of the fleet automatically misjump with it?

Just a thought.

Hal
Rikki Tikki Traveller
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:27 pm

I would say it depends.

The Jump is really several parts, IMTU, only the Navigation check would be the same. SO an individual ship might have an unexpected power surge and misjump, but the fleet wouldn't be affected.

IF, you use con-joined Jump Bubbles or something like that, then what effects one effects all.

BUT, the best answer is probably... what is more interesting from a gaming point of view???
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baithammer
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby baithammer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:07 am

Answered under 2ed HG Synchronised Jumps.
If one ship fails in this check, then it may not join in the
synchronised jump. If this happens, the admiral may
choose to jump without it or give the order for every ship
to make the check again, restarting the whole process.
Note that its not a single ship acting as a master for synchronised Jumps, its coordination of all ships for the jump.
To synchronise a jump, every ship taking part must have
a crew member succeed at a Difficult (10+) Engineer
(jump drive) check (1D rounds, INT or EDU).
If one ship fails in this check, then it may not join in the
synchronised jump. If this happens, the admiral may
choose to jump without it or give the order for every ship
to make the check again, restarting the whole process.
Condottiere
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:35 am

Central traffic coordination would make jump bubble intersection unlikely, except by mischance.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:11 am

baithammer wrote: Answered under 2ed HG Synchronised Jumps.
This isn't the actual jump roll, just a preliminary roll to join the synchronised group, hence can't determine misjump.


The procedure for a synchronised jump is not well defined in MgT2. I use the following procedure:
1. A single Astrogation roll for the synchronised jump (Core, p148).
2. A synchronisation roll for each ship (HG, p14).
3. A jump roll for each ship that jumped (Core, p148), hence only individual ships can misjump.

So I would say that only individual ships can misjump, but a very bad Astrogation roll might contribute to several misjumps.

I use hidden Astrogation roll, so the players do not know when they have f-ked up before the final jump roll.
baithammer
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby baithammer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:54 pm

That was the point in the quoted text, that the synchronized portion is a separate step and its not done as a master/slave setup.
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:54 pm

Then we agree.
HalC
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby HalC » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:23 pm

Ok, I'm going to re-read the rules from HIGH GUARD 2nd edition from MgT. Then I'll start with each step required and see where or what happens if the Jump Co-ordinating ship misjumps, and what happens, per the rules...

Step 1: Astrogation (easy based roll - modified by parsecs being jumped)
Step 2: Divert Power (average based roll)
Step 3: JUMP! (Modified by engineer effect in step 2, or drive hits or fuel type or diameter distance of nearest large body))

Synchronized Jump:
To synchronise a jump, every ship taking part must have a crew member succeed at a Difficult (10+) Engineer (jump drive) check (1D rounds, INT or EDU).
So where exactly does the Synchronized Jump roll come into play? Does it take the PLACE of Step 2? Is it in addition to Step 2? If it is in place of step 2, and the engineer fails his roll to synchronize, does he then roll again at "Average" against his engineering skill to see what the actual results of his jump is going to be?

My suggested solution?

Step 1: Astrogation
Step 2a: Fleet Synchronize roll or step 2b: Divert Power
Step 4: JUMP!

Why?

The coordinating ship (henceforth Master Ship), is making an ordinary jump. Its time in jump space isn't being coordinated with any other ship outright.

The secondary ships coordinating with the master ship however, have to be able to match the energy profile within a VERY TIGHT tolerance or they can't join in with the master ship. They try to join in the Synchronization effect, and if successful, they too go to the next JUMP! roll like anyone else. If they fail in their synchronization roll, they either abort the jump outright, or they continue with a "normal" non-synchronized jump.

Now - if the MASTER ship does poorly, everyone is synchronized with it - and also do poorly (ie misjump, miss the exit point by some value) etc.

Now for the one question unresolved in my mind's eye...

It states that the coordinated jump uses the same software as a normal jump - but the bandwith has to be higher for the coordinated jump.

Does this mean that ALL ships trying to coordinate in a convoy/fleet jump have to be running the software in that fashion, or just the Master Ship coordinating the jump?

Implications of the answers to the immediately above question:

If all have to be running that kind of a set up - that means that civilian ships tend not to be suited for such endeavors, and rarely if ever, group together in a convoy like scenario. Here, it matters a LOT what the relatively velocity is upon entering jump space - and exiting jump space as far as a convoy goes. Having a zero relative vector upon entering (and leaving) jump space makes it easier to start up the convoy when late arriving ships finally exit jump space.
If only ONE ship has to have that kind of a set up (extra bandwidth to communicate with all other ships in the fleet jump) - then civilian ships can join in convoys. Lesser fleet sized hulls don't have to coordinate the jump, they simply let the bigger ships handle it.

Part of me likes the idea that ALL ships have to coordinate together with the extra bandwidth simply because each nearby ship could affect their transit. But it makes it unlikely that civilian ships ever jump in a convoy.

So, thoughts?
Condottiere
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby Condottiere » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:18 pm

There are other, undiscovered factors influencing the duration of the jump at the point of transition, which alter if the linked ships don't jump at the same time or in a coordinated pattern.

Like Aquarius rising in Jupiter.
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Re: Misjumps by fleets?

Postby phavoc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:27 pm

Reposting from the other thread:

It would depend on why the misjumped. If it was a result of a navigation error then yes, all ships would be using bad data. If it was a result of the ships encountering a large planetary body in the path of their jump then yes, they should all misjump together. If it was the result of a mechanical failure (or using unrefined fuel) or some other error isolated to a single ship, then on, the fleet would proceed as expected and the single ship would misjump on it's own.

It would be the height of silliness if there was a yeoman counting down "3..2..1.. jump!" on a radio and expecting a rating on all other ships to push a button at the EXACT same moment. Not that some of the rules don't have such a basis...

I'm fine with it taking more effort, or time, to compute a fleet jump. This is where it also makes sense to bring a fleet to a full stop so it need not continually run calculations bases on the heading and velocity of the ships and all potential celestial objects in the jumping path. It's one fewer set of parameters to calculate and coordinate.

However, all ships would have their navigational coordinates fed to it by the ship calculating the coordinated jump and then the master ship would transmit the signal for all ships to jump at XX time - which once the ship clocks were synched would mean all ships would jump at the exact same moment. That would eliminate the very, very tiny difference in time related to the distance a signal would travel.

This shouldn't be complicated rocket science, though obviously the more powerful your computer the faster the ships could make the jump.

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