Imperial marines and battledress

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Condottiere
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:54 am

I don't doubt that the Imperium will forward deploy Marine contingents from other sectors during a war, or from nearby subsectors during a crisis, as well as call up the reserves.

But the rule seems to be that when the Marines turn up, so is the jig for the player characters.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:03 pm

Cost of Patrol Corvette: MCr 174.
Cost of Battle Dress for it's marines: MCr 5.

Cost of Kinunir-class: MCr 734.
Cost of Battle Dress for it's marines: MCr 20.

The cost of Battle Dress is trivial compared to the warship carting them around, I would assume any marines deployed aboard are issued with Battle Dress.

Battle Dress is even a very cheap way to provide Naval personnel with boosted DEX, so the Navy should probably jump at the chance to equip it's pilots and gunners with scout suits.


Note that low tech troops with can-openers (Anti-Matériel Rifles with APDS ammo) can have 5D AP20 in easy quantity, making Combat Armour next to useless...
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby phavoc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:48 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:03 pm
Cost of Patrol Corvette: MCr 174.
Cost of Battle Dress for it's marines: MCr 5.

Cost of Kinunir-class: MCr 734.
Cost of Battle Dress for it's marines: MCr 20.

The cost of Battle Dress is trivial compared to the warship carting them around, I would assume any marines deployed aboard are issued with Battle Dress.

Battle Dress is even a very cheap way to provide Naval personnel with boosted DEX, so the Navy should probably jump at the chance to equip it's pilots and gunners with scout suits.

Note that low tech troops with can-openers (Anti-Matériel Rifles with APDS ammo) can have 5D AP20 in easy quantity, making Combat Armour next to useless...
Individually the costs for small arms and equipment like that is always going to look cheaper. However that's not how it works. Each set of battledress incurs additional costs in personnel, training, and spares. All militaries have to work within budgets.

Using your corvette as an example, a 10-man marine unit would be MCr50 - that's 1/3rd the cost of the ship. As you get more expensive ships the costs appear to be lower, but they really aren't, it's just looks smaller.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:05 pm

phavoc wrote: Individually the costs for small arms and equipment like that is always going to look cheaper. However that's not how it works. Each set of battledress incurs additional costs in personnel, training, and spares.
Sure, like any other equipment...

Battle Dress is only kCr 60 more expensive than Combat Armour. I hope you are not suggesting the marines should go into combat in soft vacc suits?

phavoc wrote: All militaries have to work within budgets.
That is generally my line...

phavoc wrote: Using your corvette as an example, a 10-man marine unit would be MCr50 - that's 1/3rd the cost of the ship. As you get more expensive ships the costs appear to be lower, but they really aren't, it's just looks smaller.
MCr 50? Where do you get that? The difference between Combat Armour and basic Battle Dress is only kCr 60?

If 5 marines in Battle Dress is more combat effective than 10 marines in Combat Armour (which seems likely), the Navy can't afford the space for non-Battle Dress troops. It's too expensive to cart around people in space, even if people are cheap and plentiful.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby paltrysum » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:50 pm

The budget is quite large in MTU. We're talking about a massive economy and arguably the richest, most powerful governmental entity in Known Space. They don't skimp on battledress. If the marines are operating in space and might be performing a boarding action, no one operates without battledress if they're trained on it.

Again, this isn't "Yanks in Space" as an earlier poster said. We're talking about what could very well be a post-scarcity interstellar economy in which belters are mining more industrial metals in a handful of planetoids than the entire Earth contains. The Imperium is rich and largely has no one to answer to. I'm not saying every clerk has a suit of battledress in their locker, but I err on the side of plenty over scarcity.
Last edited by paltrysum on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby phavoc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:59 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:05 pm
Using your corvette as an example, a 10-man marine unit would be MCr50 - that's 1/3rd the cost of the ship. As you get more expensive ships the costs appear to be lower, but they really aren't, it's just looks smaller.
MCr 50? Where do you get that? The difference between Combat Armour and basic Battle Dress is only kCr 60?

If 5 marines in Battle Dress is more combat effective than 10 marines in Combat Armour (which seems likely), the Navy can't afford the space for non-Battle Dress troops. It's too expensive to cart around people in space, even if people are cheap and plentiful.
[/quote]

My bad, I calculated it based on the 5MCr listed. I didn't have the costs available.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:06 pm

Lots of great input so far, thanks everyone! I thought I'd add some comments, clarifications and thoughts of my own.

First of all, yes Battledress is expensive. So are G/Carriers, Grav tanks, APCs and other support vehicles that infantry are traditionally dependent upon. Battledress-equipped troops also benefit from all of those, but don't need them in order to be effective.

Battledress wearers can fly (thanks to grav assist, which can also be fitted to combat armour to be fair), are practically immune to regular infantry weapons, and they can carry destructive and/or traditionally vehicle-mounted weapons such as P/FGMP, autocannons, VRF Gauss guns, tac missiles...

There are drawbacks, of course. The suit is expensive, complex and requires lots of training (vacc suit, flyer(personal) heavy weapons) and the fuel cells only last 12 hours. Duration and life support can be extended, but only by occupying slots that could have mounted weapons, support equipment or grav harness...

The Azhanti class frontier cruiser carries a company of 150 men. Equipping them with battledress makes them so much more effective, especially without support vehicles. A dedicated troop carrier should have space for vehicles, but a frontier cruiser only has 400 something dtons of cargo, and they need supplies and spares for the ship too.

I’m not sure five regular soldiers versus 10 battledress is a fair comparison. Take a ten man squad, wearing combat armour and using gauss rifles. Their opposition: one battledress-equipped soldier, armed with a VRF Gauss gun with HEAP ammo. The lone BD trooper could almost wipe out the entire squad within a single combat round! I’m reminded of an old 40k quote, goes something like “give me a hundred space marines, or Failing that, a thousand other troops”.

So basically, I’m more and more in the “can they afford not to?” camp.

Lastly, I love the idea of giving naval gunners and pilots scout battledress! The other day I thought about what fighter pilots might wear, and in my modest small-minded world I assumed vacc suit rather than combat armour... but scout BD would make a lot of sense!

There was a fighter discussion not too long ago here, and it was suggested to give pilots skill augments and similar upgrades. A scout BD would give similar bonus, but when the pilot retires or dies the suit can be worn by their successor.

A pilot in battledress is also more survivable, plus they could most likely fly back to their carrier using builtin thruster pack!

Final, final thought: equipping not only marines but also gunners (and possibly other crew too?) with battledress makes boarding an imperial navy vessel a very difficult task...
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby phavoc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:10 pm

paltrysum wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:50 pm
The budget is quite large in MTU. We're talking about a massive economy and arguably the richest, most powerful governmental entity in Known Space. They don't skimp on battledress. If the marines are operating in space and might be performing a boarding action, no one operates without battledress if they're trained on it.

Again, this isn't Yanks in Space. We're talking about what could very well be a post-scarcity interstellar economy in which belters are mining more industrial metals in a handful of planetoids than the entire Earth contains. The Imperium is rich and largely has no one to answer to. I'm not saying every clerk has a suit of battledress in their locker, but I err on the side of plenty over scarcity.
Not sure what the Yanks in Space comment is supposed to mean, but if you want to use the US as an example, sure. The US has the largest military budget in the world. It cannot afford all it's toys. The Imperium has a smaller tax base, but spread across a larger set. Scale matters, but there's still going to be a limit.

But let's set aside the issue of cost. Let's be practical about it. In the Capitol sub-sector, just how many boarding actions require battledress-armed marines? There are literally thousands of star systems that have no enemy present aside from pirates. It's like replacing revenue cutters with heavy cruisers. There's neither a need nor a justification for that to occur everywhere.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:47 pm

phavoc wrote: My bad, I calculated it based on the 5MCr listed. I didn't have the costs available.
The MCr 5 was for the entire squad, and a bit rounded up. A basic TL15 BD is only MCr 0.22.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:58 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Lastly, I love the idea of giving naval gunners and pilots scout battledress! The other day I thought about what fighter pilots might wear, and in my modest small-minded world I assumed vacc suit rather than combat armour... but scout BD would make a lot of sense!

There was a fighter discussion not too long ago here, and it was suggested to give pilots skill augments and similar upgrades. A scout BD would give similar bonus, but when the pilot retires or dies the suit can be worn by their successor.
Despite having suggested it, I don't think I would allow the DEX bonus to affect space combat.
CSC, p30 wrote:Travellers wearing battle dress are treated as having enhanced characteristics (usually STR and DEX) for the purposes of carrying equipment and modifiers in combat, ...
The DEX-bonus is for swinging heavy weapons in combat, not for playing video games.
Besides, DM +3 on space combat attack rolls would change the space combat system too much.

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: A pilot in battledress is also more survivable, plus they could most likely fly back to their carrier using builtin thruster pack!
MCr 0.3 for a scout suit is probably worth it to save the lives of highly trained fighter jocks, even if they do not get the DEX-bonus...
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby phavoc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:44 pm

Wouldn't pilots be in space suits already? Not sure what combat armor would do for them in a space fight. Maybe if they needed to get out and push??

Even at Cr220,000, a five-man squad is MCr1. Is there a listing for how much it costs to maintain battledress? If it costs thousands of Cr to maintain a stateroom with zero occupancy then battledress should also incur a cost as well.

I just don't see any military expending money like that when it's unnecessary for the majority of their deployed military.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:25 pm

phavoc wrote: I just don't see any military expending money like that when it's unnecessary for the majority of their deployed military.
If they don't need armour because they probably don't need to fight, they probably don't need weapons either?

For that part why deploy marines at all, a few naval ratings with lasers should be enough to scare civilians?


If you do not buy and train with the equipment you intend to use in war, how do you suppose to have the equipment or trained troops available when you actually go to war?
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby paltrysum » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:22 pm

phavoc wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:10 pm
Not sure what the Yanks in Space comment is supposed to mean,...
I was merely paraphrasing an earlier poster's term, who I believe was attempting to say that the Imperial Marines shouldn't be too closely linked to the USMC. I'm a Yank, too. :)

No, on to the more pertinent stuff...
phavoc wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:10 pm
The US has the largest military budget in the world. It cannot afford all it's toys. The Imperium has a smaller tax base, but spread across a larger set. Scale matters, but there's still going to be a limit.

But let's set aside the issue of cost. Let's be practical about it. In the Capitol sub-sector, just how many boarding actions require battledress-armed marines? There are literally thousands of star systems that have no enemy present aside from pirates. It's like replacing revenue cutters with heavy cruisers. There's neither a need nor a justification for that to occur everywhere.
I would debate both the points you make above:
  • Again, the U.S. is not the best example. We don't have the data resources to better allocate our expenditures in the U.S. I would expect that the Imperial military, with its access to TL-15 AI computers, would feature a more exacting approach to procurement of military hardware. In the U.S., a lot of our military expenditures are dictated by political and economic factors instead of logic.
  • I believe the ubiquitous distribution of battledress among infantry marines at Capital makes even more sense. That's where you want to convey power and military supremacy. It prevents insurrection when the entire populace knows and sees firsthand how powerful and well-equipped their armed forces are. (Tell that to Dulinor. I know!)
Last edited by paltrysum on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:49 pm

As I recall, in Striker the cost of your privates maintenance is about fifty thousand credits per year.

Operating costs should eat up the military budgets, but they don't.

As I recall as well, when I tried calculating the costs of interstellar deployment of ground forces, it did become very expensive.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby baithammer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:52 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:47 pm
phavoc wrote: A basic TL15 BD is only MCr 0.22.
Its 0.44 Mcr as the TL 15 version requires the Advanced Technology upgrade.
Advanced Technology: Superior versions of battle dress exist,
incorporating the very latest technologies, but are very
expensive despite their benefits. Advanced technology adds
+10% to battle dress Protection, Rads, and Slots (rounding
up). For psi-commando battle dress, this is available at TL16.
Modification TL Slots Cost
Advanced Technology 15 - +100%
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:00 pm

baithammer wrote: Its 0.44 Mcr as the TL 15 version requires the Advanced Technology upgrade.
Advanced Technology is an optional upgrade, it is never required.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby Condottiere » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:14 pm

Limbs can be regrown. Or replaced.

Unpowered combat armour should have an option where the concentration of protection is on the head and torso.
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby baithammer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:21 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:00 pm
baithammer wrote: Its 0.44 Mcr as the TL 15 version requires the Advanced Technology upgrade.
Advanced Technology is an optional upgrade, it is never required.
Its required for the battledress to be TL15, just like spinal weapons. And with so many stats boosted by 10% and are rounded upwards it almost makes the trade off worth it. ( Until you start trying to stuff every warm body into a battledress.)
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby phavoc » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:43 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:25 pm
phavoc wrote: I just don't see any military expending money like that when it's unnecessary for the majority of their deployed military.
If they don't need armour because they probably don't need to fight, they probably don't need weapons either?

For that part why deploy marines at all, a few naval ratings with lasers should be enough to scare civilians?


If you do not buy and train with the equipment you intend to use in war, how do you suppose to have the equipment or trained troops available when you actually go to war?
I still don't think you are understanding the fiscal point. Sure, if you can give every military person battledress and FGMP-15 weapons they'd be a fearsome force. The point is why would you? Just how often are you actually NEEDING battledress-equipped troops? I continue to cite real-world examples and you continue to want to use fake-world examples.

If they don't need armor, and don't need to fight, why do they need to be in space? Why does any star nation need a navy? Why can't they all just get along???
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Re: Imperial marines and battledress

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:02 pm

baithammer wrote: Its required for the battledress to be TL15, just like spinal weapons.
An item manufactured on a TL15 world will be TL15 since the economic base is TL15, just as TL6 ground cars are not mass produced (or mass-produceable) today.

Since no major breakthroughs have been made in BD construction it will be identical to a TL14 DB in game terms.

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