Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

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paltrysum
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Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby paltrysum » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:19 pm

The MgT2 Central Supply Catalog ammunition section says that magrail weapons cannot use AP rounds in the introduction to the chapter. Would you take that to mean that gauss weapons, by extension, also cannot use AP rounds?
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:23 pm

I don't have that book. But don't weapons generally need an AP trait to do AP stuff?
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby Reynard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:26 pm

Sounds like there's no restriction to the gauss weapons from using AP and APDS rounds. Limitations could be the cost and availability. Just remember the opposition can do the same thing for the same reasons.
Last edited by Reynard on Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:34 pm

paltrysum wrote: Would you take that to mean that gauss weapons, by extension, also cannot use AP rounds?
No, I wouldn't.

Magrail seems to be the "shotgun" version of gauss weapons introduced at higher TL. It's a specialisation of gauss, not the other way around.

Besides:
CSC, p129 wrote:The gauss cannon may use the variant ammunition types found in the Ammunition chapter.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby baithammer » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:02 pm

All the gauss heavy weapons in MGT 2ed CS have AP as a trait with Mass Driver instead having Artillery.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby paltrysum » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:35 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:23 pm
I don't have that book. But don't weapons generally need an AP trait to do AP stuff?
There's an ammunition section in the book that features many types of variant ammunition: armor piercing, discarding sabot, explosive, aerosol, directed plasma, etc. The AP rounds are more expensive but provide an additional AP equal to the damage dice number of the weapon. So, for example, if a gauss rifle (which already has an AP trait of 3) can use AP rounds, that would add an additional AP of 4 (since the gauss rifle does 4D), giving the weapon an AP value of 7.

Sounds like the consensus is gauss weapons can indeed use AP rounds. It seems a bit massively overpowered, but if that's what the rules say, I expect they wanted it that way.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby baithammer » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:45 am

In addition, heavy weapons may not use the ammunition in this chapter, unless otherwise stated in their description
There is a note at the bottom of the list of weapons not capable of using AP ammunition, in this case heavy weapons unless the specific entry states otherwise.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby steve98052 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:30 pm

In the classic Mercenary, Gauss rifle ammunition was described as a 4 mm, 4 g round, with both an armor-piercing core and a soft sheath for stopping power. So by that description it's already armor-piercing.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:07 pm

steve98052 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:30 pm
In the classic Mercenary, Gauss rifle ammunition was described as a 4 mm, 4 g round, with both an armor-piercing core and a soft sheath for stopping power. So by that description it's already armor-piercing.
It is indeed, and the current version has AP 5 to represent this.

There are however situations when more AP is needed, and since gauss rifles aren’t on the “no special ammo” list on p.138 of CSC they can indeed use special armour piercing ammo.

Note that “if the weapon already has the AP trait, this is added to the AP score” (CSC, under every AP-modifying option in the ammo chapter) and also
“Central Supply Catalogue, p.138” wrote: The rules and options provided here should be treated as a toolkit which can be modified to suit a specific universe, world or even individual arms manufacturer. As always, the referee is the final arbiter of what is possible and he is well within his rights to rule that certain types of ammunition are not available for certain guns.


If the referee feels that APDS ammo for the player group’s gauss rifles make them too powerful, just don’t give it to them. Or the other way around “there might be serious opposition ahead, you might wanna get some of these...”
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby steve98052 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:13 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:07 pm
If the referee feels that APDS ammo for the player group’s gauss rifles make them too powerful, just don’t give it to them. Or the other way around “there might be serious opposition ahead, you might wanna get some of these...”
I'd say that standard Gauss rounds are powerful enough, though I haven't done the math to say for sure.

The specialty rounds for the Gauss rifle are the less-lethal rounds, such as tranq, gas, and maybe things like paint and beanbag. Most of those require the adjustable velocity upgrade for the rifle; fragile rounds like tranq, gas, and paint would be destroyed by being accelerated to 1500 meters per second, and such velocity could kill unarmored people, so they'd best be fired subsonic.

Beanbag rounds or rubber bullets are a special case; they'd likely be launched with the rifle in a grenade launcher setting. They'd probably have to use the bullet trap design (possibly with a specialized bullet) and a carrier that opens into a high drag shape after launching the low-lethality round; a shoot through design doesn't accomplish the low-lethality goal very well.

Any kind of specialty round would be recognizable by the rifle, and presumably tell it to adjust settings: low velocity for fragile rounds, enforce a range minimum for beanbags or rubber so the bullet trap has space to decelerate, etc.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby BigDogsRunning » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:49 pm

Gauss weapons are already AP. They’ve been designed to leverage some of the features of both AP, and APDS rounds already. Discarding sabot doesn’t really do anything if you’re already using a needle round. A smaller penetrator will quickly lose the ability to do significant damage. And, at the higher TL’s, they’ve moved to armor that is build out of materials (bonded superdense) that is harder and tougher than what regular gauss rounds are using for their penetrators anyway. So, I added SuperDense penetrators for Gauss weapons at TL-14, an adaptation in response to bonded superdense armors.

I just call them SD rounds, and they double the AP rating for Gauss weapons at x10 cost.

Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby tdsharkey » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:11 am

Can a gauss round be incendiary? The rules generalize a great deal (I'm sure for the sake of simplicity I guess..) but it, personally, doesn't make sense to me that a small metallic dart could somehow have an incendiary property. But RAW I suppose it does?
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby Reynard » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:52 pm

Incendiary is allowed for pistols and rifles so gauss can use them. The rounds would be something like a magnesium core wrapped in a protective case that can take the high velocity.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:19 pm

Gauss rifles are powerful enough, most of the time. There are occasions when one want to go battledress-hunting however...

As for APDS ammo, perhaps it’d be better to imagine it as something else, but with the same stats as APDS? Or... an idea, which also concerns the incendiary question... gauss bullets have no physical contact with the barrel, right? Perhaps the rifle could accept larger bullets, that can hold a larger amount of whatever makes the targets burn? This would also mean the rifle can actually use APDS ammo.

If incendiary and APDS feels wrong, then just don’t use them, CSC is more toolkit and ideas than rules :)

An alternative to incendiary ammo might be an aux grenade launcher with incendiary grenades?
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby Reynard » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:36 pm

The gauss needs a projectile of a substance that interacts with a magnetic field. One issue with incendiary is how much material is there to ride the rail. The munition may have to be downgraded a little in effectiveness OR we assume there is a higher tech substance in a smaller package.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby tdsharkey » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:20 pm

I think that a gauss round should, at the very least, lose its AP qualities if it is incendiary. I agree that the rules, as written, are often guidelines, but players have these resources, and while a good player may appreciate a referee's ruling, some will feel like it is just arbitrariness.

Traveller has a history of being a very specific and technical game when it comes to weapons and hardware. This latest set of rules tends to favor the general and ease of play more. It is when we hit these overlaps where rules as written meet our natural inclination to make sense of the technology that we have tension.

Personally, I think that gauss incendiary rounds should probably not be a thing; they are just too narrow a caliber, and that they are already armor piercing.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby paltrysum » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:28 pm

What's the downside to using AP and/or APDS ammo with a gauss rifle? Other than the cost, which is negligible, really, I'm not sure I see one. I'm not a big gun aficionado, so I don't know much about such things, but I have heard comments from police officers who disregard the value of armor-piercing rounds in favor of the stopping power of a high-caliber revolver. I don't know if that can be extrapolated to this case, but the rules as written don't seem to indicate that there is any loss of "stopping power" when resorting to AP rounds.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby CaladanGuard » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:54 am

The major way I stop people from just using AP ammo all the time IMTU is legality. Places might be tolerant of you carrying a pistol, or rifle around, but when you start humping AP rounds around, or even hunting them down to purchase them in a moderate law level society, the authorities may take notice.

It's a rare Traveller I think that could pull of the, "Rabbit hunting?" explanation when a customs official asks them why they've got a gauss pistol and 400 APDS rounds tucked away in their backpack.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby Reynard » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:59 am

Compare a regular gauss round, an Enhanced AP round and an APDS round's AP and damage to various armor ratings to get a sense what they can do. Now, is it worth the four and five time cost respectively? How available are these enhanced rounds to players? Do player expect to meet opposition that regularly wear battle armor?

I can see EAP and APDS as a plot device for an adventure, a special way to deal with a particularly powerful foe or a difficult obstacle to overcome.

Oh, gauss pistols can't use APDS, only rifles and heavy weapons.
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Re: Can gauss weapons use AP rounds?

Postby CaladanGuard » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:13 am

My mistake ;) I didn't actually look at it first. Luckily none of my players have ever tried to put specialised ammunition in a gauss weapon...yet. Though I do have one with a penchant for shooting AP rounds from a sniper rifle whenever he can sneak it out somewhere.

On the price issue, I think that is actually worth a look after all, yeah. A gauss rifle using APDS rounds has a cost per magazine of 200cr (40cr base x 5). If the rounds are then being picked up off the black market, they're looking at another x5 for Paramilitary items (at least). At 1000cr a magazine, the cost should at least get a sideways look from a Traveller. Sadly, most still wouldn't bat an eyelid, but it's another angle you can throw at them.

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