Low tech ships - Need help

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
phavoc
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby phavoc » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:10 pm

baithammer wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:03 pm
Since tube launches 10 fighters in a single turn after 1 turn of loading, it wouldn't be an issue with 10x space for the launch speed. ( And with a full tunnel, makes it easier to ripple launch.)
Sure it would. The issue is you are tying up huge amounts of space that is used .01% (ish) of the time. And a carrier would need more than one to allow for damage to occur and still function - at least larger carriers would. Plus if you were using heavier fighters, say in the 50 ton range, the costs would go up even more. Also, the size of the tube limits you to a max size, or else you use 50ton launch tubes for 3o ton fighters, a waste of displacement.

Tubes offer no benefit other than an increase in launch speeds, which are artificially limited by the rules to justify the existence of launch tubes. Even multiple launch hangars would be an improvement, allowing faster launches without incurring the penalty.
DivineWrath
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby DivineWrath » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:37 pm

While I'm enjoying reading this discussion of carrier, logistics, and other stuff, my original questions remain unanswered. Perhaps I should rephrase them.

Are the times listed in the hangers and docking spaces measured rounds (6 seconds) or ship combat rounds (6 minutes)? The details can mean a world of difference.

How many ships can be launched at a time? Can all ships in hangers and docking space be launched at the same time? Matters for carriers that lack launch tubes or similar equipment. Likewise, how many ships can dock at a time?

I don't like the randomness in the launch times. What launch times would be appropriate if you do away with the randomness?
Condottiere
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby Condottiere » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:47 pm

I find a thirty six second launch rate pretty good, especially in comparison to missiles and torpedoes, with their rate of fire of one per six minutes.
DivineWrath
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby DivineWrath » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:38 pm

So does this mean that I can launch all fighters in a single ship combat turn? Regardless of how many fighters my carriers might have?
phavoc
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby phavoc » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:36 am

DivineWrath wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:37 pm
While I'm enjoying reading this discussion of carrier, logistics, and other stuff, my original questions remain unanswered. Perhaps I should rephrase them.

Are the times listed in the hangers and docking spaces measured rounds (6 seconds) or ship combat rounds (6 minutes)? The details can mean a world of difference.

How many ships can be launched at a time? Can all ships in hangers and docking space be launched at the same time? Matters for carriers that lack launch tubes or similar equipment. Likewise, how many ships can dock at a time?

I don't like the randomness in the launch times. What launch times would be appropriate if you do away with the randomness?
Ship combat and launching is based on ship-terms. So it's 6 minutes a turn.

Ships in hangars is one per 30 minutes from a hangar (MGT v1) . It's extremely slow. That's why launch tubes for carriers are there. Personally I feel it's an unrealistic restriction to keep launch tubes relevant (also some versions had ship recovery using launch tubs as well). Someone would need to look MGT v2.
baithammer
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby baithammer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:54 am

Launch Tubes serve two distinct functions.

1.) Fast cycle launches
2.) Launching craft at full speed

The problem with detaching ships is you need to account for the parent ships movement and the movement of each launched craft, its good for improvised carriers and for auxiliary craft that don't require short takeoff times.
Linwood
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby Linwood » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:14 pm

I think you could justify a faster launch rate from a single hangar that holds multiple ships- perhaps 30 min for the first ship to account for securing and depressurization of the hangar and maybe one per ship turn after that.

Launch tubes might provide a tactical advantage some navies may consider worth the expense. If your battle tactics depend on close coordination of fighter groups, the faster you can assemble the groups the faster you can get them in action.
Condottiere
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby Condottiere » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:39 pm

As far as I know, hangar launches are without assistance, so the spaceships lift off under their own power, and since we don't have tractor and repulsor beams, care seems important.

I did analyse options, the best would be excreting them from the rear of the spaceship while underway, if launch is unassisted.
phavoc
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby phavoc » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:42 pm

baithammer wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:54 am
Launch Tubes serve two distinct functions.

1.) Fast cycle launches
2.) Launching craft at full speed

The problem with detaching ships is you need to account for the parent ships movement and the movement of each launched craft, its good for improvised carriers and for auxiliary craft that don't require short takeoff times.
But the games doesn't apply acceleration factors. A 2G ship is moving at 2G at the end of its turn. Acceleration is not a factor.

Other than artificially limiting the launch rates of hangars, launch tubes don't seem to actually be of any real use. They provide no acceleration benefit (adding to the crafts base speed), acceleration is not a factor, nor is being able to engage the enemy immediately after launch - there are no game mechanics for this, and indeed the dogfight rules would be used the instant two craft choose to engage each other.
Condottiere
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby Condottiere » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:43 am

Star Wars doesn't have them, but then again,they have force fields retaining atmosphere in otherwise open to space hangar bays.
baithammer
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby baithammer » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:11 am

phavoc wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:42 pm
baithammer wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:54 am
Launch Tubes serve two distinct functions.

1.) Fast cycle launches
2.) Launching craft at full speed

The problem with detaching ships is you need to account for the parent ships movement and the movement of each launched craft, its good for improvised carriers and for auxiliary craft that don't require short takeoff times.
But the games doesn't apply acceleration factors. A 2G ship is moving at 2G at the end of its turn. Acceleration is not a factor.

Other than artificially limiting the launch rates of hangars, launch tubes don't seem to actually be of any real use. They provide no acceleration benefit (adding to the crafts base speed), acceleration is not a factor, nor is being able to engage the enemy immediately after launch - there are no game mechanics for this, and indeed the dogfight rules would be used the instant two craft choose to engage each other.
There are mechanics attached to this.
It takes D3 rounds to release or recover a ship of less
than 2,000 tons, during which time neither ship can
expand any Thrust or make any attack rolls.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:52 am

DivineWrath wrote: While I'm enjoying reading this discussion of carrier, logistics, and other stuff, my original questions remain unanswered.
AFAIK:

Use space combat rounds, so a craft launches from a Docking Space in D3 rounds or 6-18 minutes.

You can launch all craft simultaneously, so if you have 10 craft in hangars, they can all launch in the same 2D minutes or ~2 rounds.

Launch Tubes only allows marginally faster launches, but it can be done while under thrust, hence e.g. dodging. So launch tubes confer a marginal advantage at huge cost.

If you launch many craft at the same time I generally use the maximum time, since there will always be some stragglers and you are likely flying in formation. So, craft launch from Docking Spaces in 3 rounds.
baithammer
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby baithammer » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:36 pm

Launch Tubes only allows marginally faster launches, but it can be done while under thrust, hence e.g. dodging. So launch tubes confer a marginal advantage at huge cost.
Note that both the launched craft and the launching ship can use thrust and can participate in combat, so there is more than marginal gains to be had. ( Otherwise neither can use thrust or take combat actions.)

For non-combat operations, there is very little advantage to launch tubes.
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:55 pm

baithammer wrote: Note that both the launched craft and the launching ship can use thrust and can participate in combat, so there is more than marginal gains to be had.
Quite, but:
AnotherDilbert wrote: Why would we plan to launch into combat? With decent sensors, or a CAP, we would generally detect an enemy fleet far beyond Long range (where missiles can hit within 3 rounds). A fragile carrier should never come under enemy guns, it should launch its fighters against the enemy and run away.
Note that the carriers can kill each other with a single salvo of missiles from no-cost fixed mounts. If the carriers come under fire, they die, immediately.
baithammer
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby baithammer » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:03 pm

Thats ideal, however you never know when an enemy fleet might jump into system near your fleet. ( Where getting your fighters out while disengaging is a good idea.)
Condottiere
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby Condottiere » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:03 pm

Maybe the Sector Admiral decides to Pearl Harbour someone by dropping a squadron of Tigresses a hundred diameters from a major planet.
DivineWrath
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby DivineWrath » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:28 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:52 am
If you launch many craft at the same time I generally use the maximum time, since there will always be some stragglers and you are likely flying in formation. So, craft launch from Docking Spaces in 3 rounds.
Hmm... I might just use that. Making carriers that launch a lot of fighters at once is what I plan to do.
baithammer
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby baithammer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:31 am

Just remember that both the launching vessel and the launched craft can't expend any thrust during the launch phase.

As for the pearl harbour, use a large bulk carrier that normally uses external cargo mounts and replace them with docking clamps with the fighters disguised by a cover to look like cargo.
Condottiere
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby Condottiere » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 am

Pearl Harbour implies, surprise, at least tactical success, and getting off relatively scot free.

Naval warfare as conceptualized in Traveller seems a balance of forces; sending a converted megafreighter looks more like a suicide mission, especially without fleet support.
baithammer
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Re: Low tech ships - Need help

Postby baithammer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:16 am

Either use strike carriers for extraction or bail into populated areas.

Pearl Harbour was a bit overblown as it used a lot of resources by an already overextended Japanese navy.

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