Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

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Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:11 am

Greetings,
I've got a question regarding the latest preview from the upcoming Rift Box, the Zarelinung class explorer. It truly is a fascinating ship, collectors and biosphere enables long endurance, and ample space devoted to common areas and gaming space ensures the crew won't break down during the journey.

The thing I don't quite understand though is that the recommended crew numbers 23, before adding scientists. The biosphere can support up to 48 people, and the scientific operations suite (whatever that is - guess we'll find out next wednesday ;) ) supports up to 16 personnel. This adds up to 39 total crew. I don't see any virtual crew software, but the computer is powerful and the advanced science program might be able to substitute science personnel (another thing to find out on wednesday) but there are only 8 staterooms? Where are the rest of the crew supposed to sleep? I suppose the common areas could be used for sleeping as per the rulebook p.206 under basic passage... Perhaps this will turn out to be a non-issue when we get to see the full picture, but from the preview alone it looks a bit strange...
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Reynard » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:38 pm

I'm probably looking in the wrong place. Where can I find this design so I can get an over view?
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:11 pm

Sorry, I could have posted a link in my first post :oops:

Direct link can be found here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/t ... einter.pdf

This page: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/19 ... ts/2034004 is where I found it, along with more info on the campaign status as well as some wonderful concept art - well worth a look!
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:46 pm

Thanks for the link.

There are some issues...
The cost is not correctly summed (MCr 53 off?).
The space is not correctly summed (127 Dt off?).
The hangars should take 160 Dt and MCr 32.
As noted, not enough staterooms but vast common areas.
Low berths and weapons use Power.
Jump software is included in Core computers.


Why 17 air locks, isn't the default 15 enough?
The missile bay launches 12 missiles per round, filling the empty hardpoints with triple missile racks in fixed mounts would launch 15 missiles per round, saving 50 Dt and some gunners.


Low berths in the cargo hold?
The aft cargo lift leads nowhere?
The port side iris valve ladder leads on decks 4, 3, and 2 to the starboard side on deck 1.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby PsiTraveller » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:53 am

The biggest thing the ship will do is show how Collector based technology will rule the future. While it limits the movement to once a week of motionless recharging, it offers cheaper, more efficient movement of people and goods. For logisitical movement it will be paramount.

You have a 1500 ton ship with 42 tons of fuel for Jump 3 capability. This is saving 450 tons of fuel and allows the ship to carry 391 tons of cargo at Jump 3. That is pretty good. A redesign of a 1500 ton hull with an eye towards cargo could get that number really high. This would save a lot of trips when moving supplies and people.

The use of the ship in the Rift book also might be an indication that the Collector is not solar based and can collect the exotic particles needed to power the Jump drive in empty hexes as the ship travels the rift areas. This would change the military situation in the Rift in a big way. The shortest distance between 2 points is now a straight line, no more following Mains to get to your final destination.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:23 am

And you have just spotted why the collector technology in T5 and MgT breaks the setting.

The original Annic Nova version required a nearby star and took 1-6 weeks - no deep space jumps without recharge times measured in years or decades (now there is an interesting thought...)

the version we have now means the Zhodani could build their entire fleet with collector technology, empty hex jump all the way to Rhylanor, Trinn and Mora, slag the three of them and then retreat.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby PsiTraveller » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:18 am

Traveller New Era Vampire fleets crossing into Deneb and extinguishing the flame. :evil:

And if the High technology is allowed you might also be allowing experimental versions of hyperdrive, warp or space folding drive. These would allow Rift crossing as well. Even with disadvantages that may come with new tech.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:30 am

PsiTraveller wrote: And if the High technology is allowed you might also be allowing experimental versions of hyperdrive, warp or space folding drive.
Even experimental hyperdrives would render jump drives obsolete instantly, since they can cross a sector in a day without any fuel...

E.g. viewtopic.php?p=899718#p899718
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Reynard » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:20 pm

Had to look again at the Collector description. I made the mistake of remembering what the original collectors had for advantages AND limitations and assumed. The original is the accumulator with the corresponding canopy. Activating the accumulator causes the external canopy to unfold which takes an hour. Once unfolded it's a circular thin black absorbent film 1 kilometer in diameter on a skeleton framework. It charges the accumulator in 1d weeks and a star was needed as a radiation source. No mention if the ship need to remain stationary. This power ran the lights and jump engines. Hydrogen fuel was needed for the small craft.

The MgT Collectors still use a canopy though size isn't stated. Now we read it collects exotic particles, period. That does seem to say ambient radiation not a star so even an 'empty' hex can be a refueling spot. Energy is now a mere week to collect but you can not expend thrust which included combat maneuvers most especially evasive actions. The energy now only works for the jump engine but that means far less power needed to be produced by the power plant thus a smaller PP but you also have the tonnage of the collectors which may equal or even exceed the saved PP space.

The biggest issue for the MgT Collector is still not being able to move or evade, big sitting duck. Well then, just fire up the maneuvers and.... This is where the problem should be and was not fully addressed in the collector section. What about that massive canopy? If we were to use the original descriptor. it's ultra fragile, a super sized 'broad side of a barn' and takes time to pack and unpack. There should be a big advantage during combat to hit and destroy the canopy. As important, you NEED that canopy or no jump energy until replaced. That should be the Achilles Heel. That's why warships don't use collector technology. That should also be why scout and scientific vessel going into unknown or potentially dangerous space shouldn't either. Even merchant vessels might not want them because time is money and sitting at the 100D mark for a week doing nothing whereas they could be refueling in a few hours while conducting business.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:17 pm

You miss the point - collector technology allows the entire Zhodani fleet to cross the Spinward Marches to any target using empty hexes.

The final assault would be conducted with enough energy stored to jump away - you use your collector 1 hex from Rhylanor and build up anough for a jump 3 - you use jump 1 to get to Rhylanor and still have jump 2 in reserve with no need to deploy the collector.

Or you use collectors tech on your fleet tenders and make the final assault with regular jump drives - you only need jump 1 with enough furel in reserve for a jump back to the hex where the tenders are waiting.

Warfare in the 3I would never be the same again...
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby PsiTraveller » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:47 pm

In all fairness I am writing up a scenario that is hydrogen based that can place FARP's anywhere you want. It is all empty hex based and Jump Net towing to move more tonnage on the forward trip.

It would take some time to do, but unless a Navy spends a lot of time jumping into and out of empty hexes on patrol it is easy enough to set up a base to perform a decap strike from.

Collectors make it easier. More fuel can be carried and not used for the transit.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Condottiere » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:54 pm

They'll likely be battle tenders, with the riders creating a perimeter for protection.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Epicenter » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:17 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:47 pm
In all fairness I am writing up a scenario that is hydrogen based that can place FARP's anywhere you want. It is all empty hex based and Jump Net towing to move more tonnage on the forward trip.

It would take some time to do, but unless a Navy spends a lot of time jumping into and out of empty hexes on patrol it is easy enough to set up a base to perform a decap strike from.

Collectors make it easier. More fuel can be carried and not used for the transit.
They're called Calibration Points (CP) in Traveller canon, deep-space refuelling points and possibly bases that sit in empty hexes.

As far as I know, that particular genie has been out of the bottle since the TNE era. It may have been earlier, but TNE is the first time I saw lots of references to deep-space refuelling points. That it exists in canon means the setting already is broken by more technology that nobody really thought-out well. It's broken either way if you think about it, because either: 1) The Zhodani (and Imperial) forces should have infested space with CPs to do massive first strikes on each other, OR 2) Sensitive neutrino detectors (possibly large array) exist which can find CPs by comparison data over time, even from nearby systems making the first-strike scenario pointless but that now breaks all these products that feature oooh aaah secret fuel caches that nobody knows about in empty hexes.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Linwood » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:23 am

How easy is it to jump to a particular point in empty space if there is no large mass nearby as a reference?

Will Collectors function the same in a (relatively) dense area of space as they apparently do in a void? One could rule that the farther they are from a star (or another source of exotic particles) the less efficient they are. Unless the assumption is that exotic particle density is relatively uniform no matter what.

How durable are the sails? Can they be shredded by a sandcaster perhaps? If they are fragile and prone to failure that would make a deep strike more problematic. It would not be unreasonable that like a lot of components they accumulate damage with every use and must be replaced.

Seems like there’s some options for GMs to put bounds on this shiny new thing if they choose.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Linwood » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:28 am

And now I’m kicking myself for missing the obvious- how does the area of the sail relate to the rate of particle collection? Takes a lot of energy to jump w/ a small ship, much less a capital vessel. And bigger sails are likely to be either easier to damage or take longer to deploy/collapse.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Jame Rowe » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:12 am

I don't know enough about MGTv2 to comment on the mechanics of the design, but I enjoy the concept of the ship.

Especially the translation "slow moving but it gets there."
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Reynard » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:48 am

"The final assault would be conducted with enough energy stored to jump away - you use your collector 1 hex from Rhylanor and build up anough for a jump 3 - you use jump 1 to get to Rhylanor and still have jump 2 in reserve with no need to deploy the collector."

If the Zhos are using collectors regularly the Imperium would be too and one of the first strategic simulations would be that situation. Any important system would have scouts constantly stationed in those particular locations. As soon as they detect a jump flare one of their ships jumps with the warning. Now the Zhos face a waiting enemy with all defenses alerted.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:50 am

It's technology level fourteen, well within the range of any interstellar entity industrial base, including the Vargr.

Think dogheaded longships.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby NOLATrav » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:57 pm

There's often quite a bit of talk of how Traveller ship hulls can withstand potentially hazardous, continuous micrometeorite impacts. I highly doubt collector canopies are that durable. A light, short duration meteor shower would probably cause severe damage to collectors.
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Re: Issue with the Zarelinung (Great Rift preview)

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:24 am

True, collectors can potentially break the setting, but if that’s too much of a concern then just don’t use the tech in your games? You’ll lose out on a few designs, but it is a rare piece of equipment among the official ships so far, so you won’t miss much.

The lack of staterooms for the poor crew of a luxury science ship bothers me more, surely some of the common or gaming spaces could be converted to staterooms? Or will things be clearer once the full book drops, perhaps?

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