Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby phavoc » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:24 am

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:13 pm
I would argue that supercomputers would be needed to operate starships - running a multi gigawatt fusion power plant, controlling the environment (grav, temperature, atmosphere etc) while all the while running the avionics and flight controls, sensors, and being able to plot hyperdimensional n-body problems in real time, not to mention obtaining firing solutions on targets at light second ranges - not something you are going to do on an i-pad. Quantum computers are not small...
I would imagine computers of the 52nd century are quite capable, and quite small if we use even the last few decades as a guide. Quantum computers will get smaller. And the change to memory storage tech is that ships have essentially unlimited data storage capacity (within reason, but certainly they'd be able to store petabyte upon petabyte easily in a device the size of a loaf of bread - the trick is the computing to properly retrieve and utilize said data...)

But they would not need d-tons of space for this sort of computing power. ST-Voyager had bio-computers that were similar to human brains in a network around the ship. That is more along the lines (even using mechanical ones) of what a ship would most likely have. Distributed computing works well and support damage control and other items that a ship would require in the Traveller universe.
Sigtrygg wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:13 pm
There was an interesting discussion over at CotI before the board update wiped the last three days - the value of life in the Imperium.

The consensus view was that the Imperium places very little value on life.
I did not see the discussion. Though I would suspect that the Imperium places the same style of value on life that the modern world does. Life IS valued, but so are other aspects of it. The Imperium is modeled more along the lines of a libertarian sort of government, with the individual worlds left up to their own devices. But there are also laws governing safe transport of goods and services between systems, and laws protecting people from slavery and other forms of servitude. The recognition of fighting between planets and societies, and even corporations, is probably one of reluctant acceptance that this IS going to happen regardless, and if you can channel and isolate the actions into being less destructive for all of society, then you have a relief valve as needed... and an iridium hammer to bring down on any and all combatants who take it too far. Which, if you think about it, is probably one of the first questions asked before combat is involved - just how far the people think they can push their disagreements before they get slapped down by the Imperium. And, I would also guess, that IF the Imperium involves itself, there aren't any winners - except for the Imperium.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5527
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Condottiere » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:43 am

Apparently, the Danes cracked down when refugees started chartering planes and upon landing, claimed asylum.

Instead of requiring highly trained medical personnel to monitor and control the reawakening process to ensure minimal chance of things going awry, higher technologically designed and manufactured ice crypts could have that as their default state.

This form of chancy travel seems something more likely to be tolerated at the fringes of empire, rather than in its core systems.
baithammer
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:21 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby baithammer » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:27 am

The Imperium is modeled more along the lines of a libertarian sort of government
It's more a colonial form, with the Imperium choosing to allow states to handle internal local governance while trade and space being the Imperiums solely. Also the Imperium retains the option to intervene.
Sigtrygg
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 769
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:23 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:42 am

This is why the Third Imperium as a setting had to be destroyed.

People turned it from what it was, a despotic, corrupt, exploitative organisation - just like the Roman Empire that was the inspiration for it - into yanks in space.

"Hey, I live in a western democracy, that's what the Imperium is like" - wrong. Very, very wrong.

The Imperial government begins at the subsector level with the subsector duke. They get the job of collecting taxes, enforcing the Emperor's will and overseeing the subsector Imperial government apparatus which may include giving orders to the military. Think of them as a cross between a British Empire Viceroy or governor and a mob boss. They are not elected, they are appointed.

The Third Imperium is driven by trade and the wealth generated by the megacorporations and the taxation of member worlds. Yup, member worlds have to pay a yearly fee and have to buy goods from the Imperium-wide corporations (whoes shareholders always include the Emperor and a few noble families).

Megacorporations can get away with murder with the Imperium turning a blind eye provided they get their cut.

As to the value of life - the Zhodani value life. They employ robots and drones on the battlefield to cut down on potential loss of life. The Imperium just harvests more warm bodies from its vast population to fill its battlesuits, fighters and gunships. If they valued life then everything up to a BattleRider would be a robot.

The Imperium views its population as an exploitable economic resourse.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5527
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:43 am

Science fiction tends to be a mirror and commentary on present society, though some do reflect on past ones.

Mercenary seems CoDominium orientated, in that the Empire is barely kept together, while High Guard looks more Empire Strikes Back, and the first set pulp fiction where whatever it is, the Imperium core and control is very distant.
steve98052
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:13 am
Location: near Seattle

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby steve98052 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:04 pm

My view about the value of life in the Imperium is that sophont lives are valued mostly in these ways:
- Nobles (and their commoner friends) are valued in proportion to the standing of the nobles within the subsector, sector, and Imperium.
- Taxpayers are valued in proportion to the amount of taxes they pay.
- Military personnel are valued in proportion to the difficulty of replacing the skills they bring to conflicts, and proportional to the harm to morale that their loss would cause.
- Travelers are are valued in proportion to the perception that the ship operates with Imperial recognition (licensing, etc.). A super-liner with a "Duchess of Mora" suite that's actually used by Duchess Delphine when she travels to Capital will probably be as safe as TL15 allows (even on the low berth deck, if any). But if Elaine and Eneri's No Questions Asked Starship Lines has a shoddy safely record, the Imperium will probably consider that mostly a problem for Elaine, Eneri, and their passengers.
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby phavoc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:26 pm

I suppose the Imperium is a mish-mash of governmental models. In some ways it's very feudal-like with the aristocracy. But people and corporations can own significant assets, so that makes it not like most feudal models where most land wealth was owned by either a religious institution or an aristocrat, and corporations didn't exist. It's libertarian in many ways because of governmental policies of hands off of business and personal choices. And it's somewhat Republican (aka Roman), too. The inherent conflict between worlds and companies in pursuit of profit makes it a good RPG environment.

The Zhodani value life in ways we don't find necessarily palatable. Yes, they use robots, but I think that's more along the lines of having 'soldiers' who won't abandon their post, who they can sacrifice without worrying about casualty reports, and for a variety of reasons why machines make great foot soldiers (no fear, no food or water, no need for R&R, etc). However, the Zho also see no issues with keeping the bulk of their population (the proles) in subjugation to the ones who have psychic abilities. And they have no compunction to 'fix' them mentally if they get out of line. And privacy is not even a concept for them. Like many things there are multiple ways to define value. :)

In general I'd say the Imperium values life, but it also values other things, like stability, free choice, and other things. I don't think any state the size of the Imperium can embrace so many freedoms without having the other problems. Star Trek, with it's ability to provide free food and shelter to everyone, still has it's problems with the perfect society. Violence, crime and all the bad things that people bring to the table will probably always exist as long as people are people.

Even with that being said, I still don't see interstellar travel and the higher death levels in the latest version of cold sleep being something that would be accepted across the board. Tech exists to stack people 2-3, even 4 high and let them be awake for travel (notwithstanding the extremely high life support costs). It would be steerage in the 52nd century, but poor people still want to arrive at their destination alive since the tech exists. In the past, where the tech did not, rich and poor people alike shared the same risks, albeit with some instance the rich made it to the lifeboats while the poor got the shaft... but at least they shared the same risks of hitting the iceberg on an "unsinkable" ship. And today a 1st class passenger has the same seat cushion that an economy person does.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5527
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:35 pm

Which is where fast drug comes in, that makes time fly by, since there's no political or bureaucratic crisis that requires your attention in real time.

Unless like me, you take the opportunity to watch movies on the entertainment system for the next twelve hours.
Sigtrygg
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 769
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:23 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Sigtrygg » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:44 pm

The Zhodani do not subjugate their proles - go and listen to MWM's podcast. The Imperial propaganda is one thing, the truth is another thing entirely. Treating mental illness and ensuring the population is content is not the same as mass mind control.

And back to fast drug vs cold berth - if the passenger can afford fast drug they can afford a medium passage.
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby phavoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:34 am

Sigtrygg wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:44 pm
The Zhodani do not subjugate their proles - go and listen to MWM's podcast. The Imperial propaganda is one thing, the truth is another thing entirely. Treating mental illness and ensuring the population is content is not the same as mass mind control.

And back to fast drug vs cold berth - if the passenger can afford fast drug they can afford a medium passage.
I wasn't aware of Miller doing a podcast on Zho society. However the propaganda tagline would greatly depend upon if you were one of the people being "fixed" so that the rest of society was content with you. Human history is littered with the "fixing" or attempted fixing of those that some - or many - thought needed fixing. It used to be that listening to rock music, dressing like a punk rocker, having spiked hair, etc, made much of society think a person, who was typically a youth, needed to be "fixed". In Zho society the people who make those decisions are the upper echelons and the Mental hygiene ensure that everyone is nice and happy. Which, by the way, doesn't equate to mind control. That would mean that people were constantly under the mental control of someone else, which would essentially make the controlled people like meat puppets. And that's not what the Zho do. They fix you so that they don't need to constantly worry about you disrupting society.

A dose of fast drug cost Cr200. Medium passage costs Cr6,200 for a single parsec. Basic passage is Cr2,200. Low passage is Cr700. Taking Fast drug would still require a seat, though in theory you could stack people in bunks in a container/room with relatively low levels of life support required (a Dton of freight costs Cr1,000 per parsec).
Sigtrygg
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 769
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:23 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:27 am

Fast drug costs Cr2000 and the antidote a further 900 in the one true edition of Traveller :)
There is also the availability issue - has that been done away with too?
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5527
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:58 am

All it needs to be is legal and available in a starport, considering the likely user base.

Though people chasing near immortality seem like customers that can be catered to.
baithammer
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:21 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby baithammer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:53 am

The advantage of the low berth is total suspension for indefinite duration as long as you have power, the fast drug simply slows things down to 1/60th of time and as of 2ed mgt is 200cr a dose. ( No mention of an antidote.)
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby JMISBEST » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:15 pm

Some very good ideas and suggestions, several of which I plan to use in my 2nd edition Campaigns
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby phavoc » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:50 am

Sigtrygg wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:27 am
Fast drug costs Cr2000 and the antidote a further 900 in the one true edition of Traveller :)
There is also the availability issue - has that been done away with too?
MGT v2 (which is the one I was looking up) says Cr200 per dose.

Fast Drug (TL10): Also called Hibernation, this drug puts the user into a state akin to suspended animation, slowing his metabolic rate down to a ratio of 60 to 1 – a subjective day for the user is actually two months. Fast Drug is normally used to prolong life support reserves or as a cheap substitute for a cryoberth. Fast drug costs Cr200 per dose. (Core Rulebook, pg 109) I recall previous versions requiring an antidote unless you were trying to use the full 60 day period. I don't see mention of it here.

MT said Fast Drug was also Cr200 per dose, and the antidote was Cr900. The Wiki says Cr2,000 per dose. I didn't dig any further, but I see that depending on which source you use there can be variance.
baithammer
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:21 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby baithammer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:05 am

Honestly could just administer the slow drug to break the hibernation. ( Boost system to 30 times normal rate.)
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby phavoc » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:15 am

Slow drug requines medical assistance normally. Though would you need to administer 2 doses to offset the time dilation (60 days for fast, 30 days for slow)?

Interesting option though.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5527
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby Condottiere » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:02 am

That might be too much shock for the system, since it accelerates, as opposed to neutralizing the effect.
baithammer
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:21 am

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby baithammer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:20 pm

Make sure to space out slow drug doses to minimize impact.
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Low Berth vs Fast Drug

Postby phavoc » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:26 am

baithammer wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:20 pm
Make sure to space out slow drug doses to minimize impact.
Unfortunately Slow drug is much harder on the body and it's supposed to require medical support for ANY usage of it. Spacing out the dose wouldn't negate that (though it would be interesting in figuring out just how a person might react to such a thing)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests