Low Berth Power Usage

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PsiTraveller
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Low Berth Power Usage

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:25 am

Low Berths have a power cost of 1. If the low berths are not being used at all (all are empty), is there any power consumption?

If low berths can be turned off, any idea on how long one would take to prep and be prepared to accept a new occupant?
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:51 am

PsiTraveller wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:25 am
Low Berths have a power cost of 1. If the low berths are not being used at all (all are empty), is there any power consumption?

If low berths can be turned off, any idea on how long one would take to prep and be prepared to accept a new occupant?
If you turn them off, keep the doors open.

See refrigerators left turned off after a month. Nasty.
Jeraa
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby Jeraa » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:56 am

PsiTraveller wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:25 am
Low Berths have a power cost of 1. If the low berths are not being used at all (all are empty), is there any power consumption?

If low berths can be turned off, any idea on how long one would take to prep and be prepared to accept a new occupant?
By the space combat rules, shutting down or starting up a system takes 1 round. That is a space combat round, so 6 minutes.
Specific systems and weapons on board the ship can be powered down to reduce the Power point requirement on the power plant, allowing Power points to be used for other systems. A successful Engineer (power) check (1 round, EDU) will allow the engineer to shut down any number of systems, freeing up their Power points for subsequent rounds. It requires another round to bring any of these systems back online.
Presumably, they simplified it for combat and it would be 1D minutes, and could be done faster/slower as normal for a skill check.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:24 am

PsiTraveller wrote: If low berths can be turned off, any idea on how long one would take to prep and be prepared to accept a new occupant?
We have no idea? Jeraa has demonstrated that we can turn them on and off fairly quickly, but that does not necessarily mean that they have reached working temperature that quickly.

For some reason they consume 1 Power for 10 low berths, so about 1 MW per berth. With that amount of power they should be able to freeze a human in:

Cooling 100 kg of water by 25 K: 100 kg × 25 K × 4 kJ/kgK ≈ 10000 kJ = 10 MJ
Turning 100 kg of water into ice: 100 kg × 334 kJ/kg ≈ 33400 kJ ≈ 33 MJ
Cooling 100 kg of ice by 100 K: 100 kg × 100 K × 2 kJ/kgK ≈ 20000 kJ = 20 MJ
So a total of about 10 + 33 + 20 ≈ 60 MJ to freeze a person.

With an input of 1 MW = 1 MJ/s power and 50% efficiency that would take 60 MJ / ( 1 MJ/s × 50% ) = 60 / ½ MJ / MJ/s = 60 × 2 [1/1/s] = 120 s.

With the amount of power we have available it seems likely that we can freeze a human in D6 minutes or 1 Turn.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:24 pm

How does the current plot say they function during role-play?
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:45 pm

MT Player's, p37:
To revive a low passage passenger: Routine, Medical, Edu, 1 min (fateful).
So it should take about 10 minutes to revive someone.
Perhaps the same to freeze them?
Reynard
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby Reynard » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:02 pm

Remember it's not supposed to be some cartoon freeze/unfreeze process. The system is designed to prevent damage as much as possible so a less than instantaneous process taking minutes either way seem reasonable at the least. Shutting down the system should automatically kill an occupant whether being cooled for suspension or while in suspension and now 'thawing' uncontrollably.
baithammer
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby baithammer » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:20 pm

Another thing to consider about low berths at least in mgt 2ed.
A low passenger is frozen in a cryoberth,
and counts as cargo. There is real danger to the
passenger, as a Medic check is required upon opening the
capsule, applying the passenger’s END DM to the check.
A further DM+1 is applied if the ship is TL12 or higher,
while non-humans suffer DM-2. An emergency low berth
inflicts DM-1 on this check.
If the check failed, the passenger does not survive.
AndrewW
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby AndrewW » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:03 pm

Reynard wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:02 pm
Remember it's not supposed to be some cartoon freeze/unfreeze process. The system is designed to prevent damage as much as possible so a less than instantaneous process taking minutes either way seem reasonable at the least. Shutting down the system should automatically kill an occupant whether being cooled for suspension or while in suspension and now 'thawing' uncontrollably.
Or it might activate an automatic revive process.
steve98052
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby steve98052 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:18 pm

For purposes of ship design, I would rule that a low berth, including emergency low berths, requires the full power point only during suspend or revive, and the rest of the time it requires non-zero power, but much less than a full power point. That maintenance power might be drawn from the power plant or possibly from some sort of long-endurance internal power supply, such as a radioisotope thermal generator (a real life technology) or nuclear power unit (a Traveller upgrade to the RTG).

Note also that people can be maintained in a low berth with Fast Drug without the low berth's standard suspend and revive process. In that case they're presumably just passing the ship's life support into the low berth at one-sixtieth the normal rate.
baithammer
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby baithammer » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:55 pm

At least according to MGT 2ed Central Supply, fast drug is a substitute for a low / cyroberth and the cyrorberth has the fast cycling freeze / revive cycle and a 1 week battery backup.
requires the full power point only during suspend or revive, and the rest of the time it requires non-zero power, but much less than a full power point.
Most of the power in a freeze system is during the maintaining period and if power is a big issue then the use of the fast drug is a possible substitute for the berths.
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby SSWarlock » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:30 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:24 am
<snip> For some reason they consume 1 Power for 10 low berths, so about 1 MW per berth.<snip>
So 1 Power = 10 MW?

Is this a house rule, an extrapolation from RAW, or is it stated explicitly somewhere? Regardless of which it is, I like it. I just hate thinking I missed something like this after reading the 1e/2e Core Books and High Guards about 10 times each (yes, I've missed things like this in the past).
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Reynard
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby Reynard » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:55 pm

Sounds like something from MegaTraveller or T4 when they used megawatts.
SSWarlock
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby SSWarlock » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:09 pm

Reynard wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:55 pm
Sounds like something from MegaTraveller or T4 when they used megawatts.
That's why I was asking. The conversion would let me use some of my MT resources in 2e much easier.
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AnotherDilbert
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:45 pm

SSWarlock wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote: <snip> For some reason they consume 1 Power for 10 low berths, so about 1 MW per berth.<snip>
So 1 Power = 10 MW?

Is this a house rule, an extrapolation from RAW, or is it stated explicitly somewhere?
Rough approximation based on size and output of fusion power plants.

1 Dt power plant (TL15) gives 1 EP = 250 MW.
1 Dt power plant (TL15) gives 20 Power.
Hence 250 MW ≈ 20 Power, or 12.5 MW ≈ 1 Power.

Other approximations are possible, e.g.:
3 Dt power plant (TL12) gives 1 EP = 250 MW.
3 Dt power plant (TL12) gives 45 Power.
Hence 250 MW ≈ 45 Power, or 5.6 MW ≈ 1 Power.

1 turret laser consumes 1 EP = 250 MW.
1 turret laser consumes 4 Power.
Hence 250 MW ≈ 4 Power, or 62.5 MW ≈ 1 Power.

To power a 1 G M-Drive for a 100 Dt hull takes 1 EP = 250 MW.
To power a 1 G M-Drive for a 100 Dt hull takes 10 Power.
Hence 250 MW ≈ 10 Power, or 25 MW ≈ 1 Power.


I prefer the simple, even 1 Power = 10 MW as it is even and simple.
Condottiere
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby Condottiere » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:23 pm

Whatever happens to popsicle or depopsicle a passenger, it's a self contained process, but requires external monitoring, pretty much like when you overclock your CPU.

Not something you want to rush.
GarethL
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby GarethL » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:35 pm

What always bothered me with shop design is that low berths (and a bunch of other high tech miscellaneous items) don't seem to have tech levels?
steve98052
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby steve98052 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:35 pm

I think the reason no technology level is noted for some items is that they are available at all levels for which they would be used. For example, the only place where one would use a low berth is a starship (or starship lifeboat), and low berths are available at all technology levels that are sufficient to build a starship.

One might argue that a low berth could be included in a non-starship, such as an in-system shuttle, but with typical Traveller space technology the trip is too short to justify the time cost of suspension and revival.

Another non-starship use for low berths would be frozen watch on monitors. Just stick the ships in orbit with a bare maintenance crew, and keep the combat crew on ice until there's trouble -- and push the emergency revival button if a hostile fleet shows up that's too tough for the regular patrol fleet. But a system that can afford monitors either has the technology for reasonably advanced ships or can afford to import a commodity item like frozen watch low berths, so again the specific technology level is "lower than the rest of the ship."

Yet another point is that it's good to build any part of the life support system so that it's easy to maintain with lower technology parts, so you don't have to wait weeks for imported replacement parts.
Condottiere
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby Condottiere » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:15 am

You can look at this as from our real life viewpoint, where getting an item is a question of access, availability and price, and one where you have a tier of technological bases, where time and space becomes a really significant factor.
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Re: Low Berth Power Usage

Postby GarethL » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:25 am

For sure,

But all these things are kind of taken into account by simply allowing higher tech items on a low tech world, perhaps with a premium on price and off-world training.

(Kind of like a third world country buying air defence systems from first world counties and then getting trained in their use).

But TL also gives you a benchmark for how common some item of tech can be, how easily finding a technician to repair an item is, etc.

So, for low births (and some other items) we don't know if TL5, 6,7,etc Worlds have them, or can manufacture them, etc.

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