[HG 2e] Docking space cost

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h1ro
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[HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby h1ro » Mon May 15, 2017 8:23 pm

At MCr.25/ton it's real tempting to park your air raft in the cargo bay and call it a day.

I can see how for larger craft it might include spares and such but even then it's a stretch as the cost of the space is pretty close to the cost of most vehicles you're parking in it.

Both cargo and docking space have a door that opens to space, I'd guess they both have the ability to cycle an atmosphere, you can add an air lock to the cargo space, I guess you could a docking space tho it would effectively double the required volume which on most smaller ships is a serious luxury.

Why are they so expensive compared to cargo?

What's the added value of a docking space?
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Condottiere » Mon May 15, 2017 11:04 pm

They're garages, but they're also enlarged airlocks.

But it's probably cheaper to set up cargo holds (free) to fit specific configurations, one or more bulkhead doors and/or airlocks to the internal areas of the ship, and a hull door large enough for egress and ingress for the projected vehicle.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Spartan159 » Tue May 16, 2017 3:24 am

I was under the possibly incorrect impression that docking space provided vehicle support such as refueling and maintenance and such.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby h1ro » Tue May 16, 2017 3:42 am

We were thinking something similar but on closer examination, 4 ton air raft costing Cr275,000 needs 5 ton docking space costing Cr1,250,000.

The space it's contained in costs enough to buy nearly 5 complete air/rafts. That's a lot of spares ;) and while it might get you a serious buy in on your local Conoco, with only 1 ton to cram it all into it seems a bit steep!
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Condottiere » Tue May 16, 2017 4:41 am

Attach it to the hull or bulkhead like a dinghy.

While at the price quoted I'd assume you could service a vessel, you'd also need enough room to do so, which for smallcraft the ten percent probably isn't enough.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue May 16, 2017 9:19 am

Yes, it is very expensive, it is also almost directly from LBB5.

h1ro wrote: I can see how for larger craft it might include spares and such but even then it's a stretch as the cost of the space is pretty close to the cost of most vehicles you're parking in it.

Both cargo and docking space have a door that opens to space, I'd guess they both have the ability to cycle an atmosphere, you can add an air lock to the cargo space, I guess you could a docking space tho it would effectively double the required volume which on most smaller ships is a serious luxury.
It seems reasonable that a Docking Space is also an air lock. The Cargo hold is not an air lock. Note that turning a compartment into an air lock costs MCr 0.1 / dTon.
A Docking Space is form-fitted and has no extra space for spares, a Full Hangar is required for that.

Spartan159 wrote: I was under the possibly incorrect impression that docking space provided vehicle support such as refueling and maintenance and such.
It seems reasonable that a Docking Space can refuel (and for military craft, rearm) the carried craft.
Maintenance requires a full hangar.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby phavoc » Tue May 16, 2017 1:57 pm

If you can't depressurize a cargo hold on a spacecraft then it can only be opened/closed on a planet or when connected to a cargo airlock. That seems a little odd to me. Cargo holds should have the same capabilities, albeit slower and with less efficiency than a dedicated airlock. So an air/raft bay could be easily configured as a cargo hold and a vehicle storage bay.

Small spacecraft, though, should fall under the docking space cost.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue May 16, 2017 2:35 pm

Additional Airlock ... Larger airlocks can be used for cargo bays.
You can add cargo air locks or turn the entire cargo hold into it if you so desire. By implication it is not default.


Reasonably you can open the cargo hatches in vacuum, but there is no guarantee you can re-pressurise quickly or easily.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby h1ro » Tue May 16, 2017 2:48 pm

Thinking further on it, it could be said that cargo space is not free, the hull costs are Cr50,000 per ton but that still makes refuelling facilities stupid expensive and I agree that a standard space doesn't allow maintenance, you need the double size luxury hanger for that.

There's also no provision in the rules for fuel tanks other than those for the ship itself. Easy enough to add them on.

Seems like a good idea to describe the facilities you get with each kind of docking bay, minimal gets you a space the right shape and lash points, pretty much like a cargo bay and costs you nothing more than the hull already did. Standard docking space gets you a refuelling point but not enough space to rearm external stores or load cargo. I'd cost this at a lot less than the MCr.25/ton, let's say Cr50,000/ton. The full hanger gets you all the things listed on page 45 of HG: "full hangar allows for repairs and maintenance of the craft when it is on board its ship. The hangar includes spare parts and specialised testing and repair equipment."

Now, a full hanger costs MCr0.2 per ton, yeah, weird huh? Less than a docking space...

Something for the errata or the Companion perhaps?
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby phavoc » Tue May 16, 2017 3:51 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 2:35 pm
Additional Airlock ... Larger airlocks can be used for cargo bays.
You can add cargo air locks or turn the entire cargo hold into it if you so desire. By implication it is not default.


Reasonably you can open the cargo hatches in vacuum, but there is no guarantee you can re-pressurise quickly or easily.
Agreed. This gets back to the idea of efficiency. A dedicated airlock should provide a host of advantages over a cargo bay. However you should still be able to depressurize and repressurize any hold or cargo area that has an external hatch or access to a vacuum.

The cost of this would be assumed in the hull cost. The design sequence isn't detailed enough to separate out, and really making it more detailed doesn't add to the game.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue May 16, 2017 4:14 pm

h1ro wrote: Now, a full hanger costs MCr0.2 per ton, yeah, weird huh? Less than a docking space...
The Full Hangar is slightly cheaper per dTon, but it is larger, so it is more expensive per craft.

E.g.: A 10 dT craft requires a 13 dT Docking Space for MCr 3.25 or a 20 dT Full Hangar for MCr 4. So, a Full Hangar is more expensive than a Docking Space, which sounds reasonable.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Condottiere » Tue May 16, 2017 4:29 pm

It's a question of positioning the external hatch and the hold which would dictate the efficiency of launching and retrieval.

Other than that, it's a matter of pumps and how quickly they can evacuate and refill the hold with an atmosphere.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby h1ro » Tue May 16, 2017 8:55 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 4:14 pm
h1ro wrote: Now, a full hanger costs MCr0.2 per ton, yeah, weird huh? Less than a docking space...
The Full Hangar is slightly cheaper per dTon, but it is larger, so it is more expensive per craft.

E.g.: A 10 dT craft requires a 13 dT Docking Space for MCr 3.25 or a 20 dT Full Hangar for MCr 4. So, a Full Hangar is more expensive than a Docking Space, which sounds reasonable.
I see your point but don't agree with it. Docking space seems disproportionately expensive to me. I want to know what a docking space gets you over a cargo space? Full hangers I get, they make sense, docking space not so much.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Condottiere » Tue May 16, 2017 11:04 pm

An interesting phrase used is When sealed, with no mention of a hatch.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed May 17, 2017 12:46 am

h1ro wrote: I see your point but don't agree with it. Docking space seems disproportionately expensive to me. I want to know what a docking space gets you over a cargo space? Full hangers I get, they make sense, docking space not so much.
If cost is a factor, use a Docking Clamp. A Docking Space is a luxury to maintain streamlining.

I guess a Docking Space gives you convenience, you can access the vehicle without exposing the entire cargo to rain, snow, tainted atmosphere, vacuum, or biological contagion. You can access the cargo without first moving vehicle(s) out of the way, which is handy when mated to a space station.

A Docking Space takes exactly as much space as needed, it may take more space in the cargo hold. E.g.: In a Subbie the hold is six meters high, but an air/raft is perhaps 1.5 m high. You either waste the 4.5 m above the air/raft or park it on top of some other cargo, inaccessible from the floor. A vehicle taller than ~2.8 m will not fit into a standard hold with 3 m deck distance. Shipping size is not "convenient parking size".

I agree that a Docking Space is (ridiculously) expensive, but the hull and drives to cart around the Docking Space is more expensive, so I tend to not worry about it.

It has been discussed before, e.g.:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119477&hilit=docking+cost
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=118998&hilit=docking+cost
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=118648&hilit=docking+cost
h1ro
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby h1ro » Wed May 17, 2017 3:54 am

Thanks for the links to the previous threads, I should have searched before posting.

I think we're in agreement.

Re grapples, I think you lose streamlining and access to the vehicle. I'm mostly thinking about air rafts and similar vehicles which don't, for the most part, have airlocks and not necessarily spacecraft. All the example ships in HG that carry an air raft are costing the bay at MCr1.25. It would be good to know what we're getting for the money.

I know a lot of stuff like this is left blank in MgT for GMs to decide themselves, I am not a fan of this way of doing things but that's ok, I don't have to like it! :)

I was (and am) curious to know how other people are interpreting the rules. I should have said that more clearly.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Condottiere » Wed May 17, 2017 11:49 am

As noted in the previous thread, I suggested a docking clamp within the cargo hold.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby msprange » Thu May 18, 2017 4:04 pm

A note on the use of cargo holds for docking space - an idea my players came up with during playtesting, certainly. However, note that if it is used in a vacuum (or unpleasant atmosphere), the whole cargo hold has to be depressurised. For some Travellers, this will not be a problem, but mine tend to use the cargo hold as a shooting range to practice skills (which is really dumb when the skill in question is Heavy Weapons, but I digress - we are not talking about the sharpest Travellers in the Free Trader...).
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby Condottiere » Thu May 18, 2017 5:21 pm

Increase gravity down range.

Which suddenly makes me wonder if gravity effects energy weapons.
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Re: [HG 2e] Docking space cost

Postby h1ro » Thu May 18, 2017 5:25 pm

Matthew

What's your thinking for the cost of docking space, specifically for use on adventure class ships carrying vehicles?

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