High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

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edpovi
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High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby edpovi » Thu May 04, 2017 5:55 pm

I’m reading through ship design rules in 2 e High Guard to design a few ship in an app I'm building. A couple of rules strike me as a bit odd, particularly how Triple Turrets and Missile Racks work.

Each type of turret mount (Single / Double / Triple) takes up the same amount of space, 1 ton. A Triple Turret can mount up to 3 turret class weapons. They don’t need to be the same type, but only one type may be used in an attack.

A turret class Missile Rack (on a hardpoint) has an internal magazine of 12 missiles. This means that a Triple Turret (Missile Rack x3), using 1 ton, has magazines for 36 missiles. This is impressive considering that storage for 36 missiles (on their own) would require 3 tons of space.

You may mix weapon types and have a Triple Turret (Beam Laser / Missile Rack / Sandcaster), which has magazines for 12 missiles and 12 sand canisters, taking up just 1 ton. It’s clear you can’t use the Beam Laser and Missile Rack in the same combat round. It’s also clear you can’t use the Point Defense reaction with the Beam Laser in the same round it’s used in an attack. A bit less clear, but reasonably implied by treating the entire turret as the “weapon”, you also can’t use Missile attack and a Sandcaster reaction in the same combat round. These seem like reasonable restrictions to me.

I’m curious on the design goal / rationale behind the current iteration of the turret rules. In my reading of the 1e MgT designs, a Triple Turret (Beam Laser / Missile Rack / Sandcaster) would still only use 1 ton, but you would also need 1 ton to store the 12 missiles and 1 ton to store 20 canisters.

-Ed
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby edpovi » Thu May 04, 2017 6:00 pm

[House Rule Idea / Suggestions]

Approach 1:
Adjust the size of turrets based on type:
Single - 1 ton
Double - 1.5 ton
Triple - 2 ton
Quad - 2.5 ton
Pop-up - x 2

Reduce the internal magazine of Missile Racks to 6 missiles (representing about 0.5 tons), and Sandcasters to 10 canisters (also about 0.5 tons).

Triple Turret (Missile Rack x3) - 2 tons, magazine for 18 missiles.
Triple Turret (Beam Laser / Missile Rack / Sandcaster) - 2 tons, 6 missiles, 10 canisters

The sizes would scale a bit with the “effective power” of the weapon system, the next class is a Barbette using 5 tons. The downside is it’s no longer “trivial” to upgrade from a Single Turret >> Double >> Quad as you need to allocate space, rather than simply swap them out.

----

Approach 2: (goal is to keep turret size the same)

A:
Keep all ammo separate from turret space, as suggested in 1e HG:

Triple Turret (Missile Rack x3) - 1 tons
  • Ammo 36 missiles - 3 tons
Triple Turret (Beam Laser / Missile Rack / Sandcaster) - 1 tons
  • Ammo 12 missiles - 1 ton, 20 canisters - 1 ton
or

B:
Reduce the internal magazine of each weapon.
- Missile Rack (4 missiles)
- Sandcaster (6 canisters)

- Triple Turret (Missile Rack x3) - 1 ton - 12 missiles
- Triple Turret (Beam Laser / Missile Rack / Sandcaster) - 1 ton - 4 missiles - 6 canisters


-Ed
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby h1ro » Thu May 04, 2017 7:46 pm

I agree that there's some confusion in how the rules are written, the way I interpret them is that there are 12 missiles available to a turret regardless of it being a single, double, triple or as 2e adds, a quad.

Looking at the missile rules on page 161 of the Core Rule Book, I'd say a single missile rack in a turret would launch 1 missile, a double turret 2 missiles etc with each turret being considered a salvo and multiple missiles applying a DM to the roll to hit as per the Missiles and Targets rule on page 162 of the CRB.

I think it's stretching it a bit too far to say a triple missile turret has 36 missiles, it still has 12 but can fire three at a time and receive a bonus on the to hit roll. I agree, it doesn't make sense. If I wanted to house rule it, I would take away missile storage from the turret, the turret simply launches the missile. I'd then allocate storage in a magazine at the 12 missiles/1dT rate and assume there was a feed mechanism between launcher and magazine (which would probably negate the need to reload as a separate action but I'd do that anyway as the idea of your gunner moving missiles to load the turret and being unable to fire is just bloody silly. It's a starship for crying out loud not a man o' war, we have autoloaders).

Make sense?
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu May 04, 2017 9:46 pm

edpovi wrote: Each type of turret mount (Single / Double / Triple) takes up the same amount of space, 1 ton. A Triple Turret can mount up to 3 turret class weapons. They don’t need to be the same type, but only one type may be used in an attack.
I think the theory is that the standard socket for a turret is 1 dT. The turret itself extends beyond the hull and can be bigger than 1 dT.

edpovi wrote: A turret class Missile Rack (on a hardpoint) has an internal magazine of 12 missiles. This means that a Triple Turret (Missile Rack x3), using 1 ton, has magazines for 36 missiles. This is impressive considering that storage for 36 missiles (on their own) would require 3 tons of space.
This is RAW. The turret is supposed to be bigger than 1 dT.

edpovi wrote: You may mix weapon types and have a Triple Turret (Beam Laser / Missile Rack / Sandcaster), which has magazines for 12 missiles and 12 sand canisters, taking up just 1 ton. It’s clear you can’t use the Beam Laser and Missile Rack in the same combat round. It’s also clear you can’t use the Point Defense reaction with the Beam Laser in the same round it’s used in an attack. A bit less clear, but reasonably implied by treating the entire turret as the “weapon”, you also can’t use Missile attack and a Sandcaster reaction in the same combat round. These seem like reasonable restrictions to me.
The attack / PD / Sandcaster rules very specifically bans using a turret for more than one attack or PD action per round. Sandcasters have no such restriction. By RAW you can do both an attack (or PD) and (at least) a Disperse Sand reaction. Reactions seems to not be limited (except PD), so you can probably perform as many Disperse Sand reactions as you have canisters in the turret.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Condottiere » Thu May 04, 2017 11:34 pm

I'm sure we've examined the issue both ways, increasing the size of the turret and/or shrinking the contents.

Missile launchers and their integral ready magazines exist in hammerspace.

What's the size of firmpoint turrets?
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby edpovi » Fri May 05, 2017 12:04 am

Condottiere wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 11:34 pm
...
What's the size of firmpoint turrets?
I looked at the firmpoint rules also, they have a bit of consistency as each firmpoint mount only accepts one weapon.
Interestingly, a Single Turret mounted on a firmpoint still consumes 1 ton of space, but the weapons mounted in a firmpoint turret are generally smaller / less capable.

A Missile Rack on a firmpoint turret has a magazine of 4 missiles. However, the Sandcaster isn't limited by the firmpoint in the rules.

The size of the firmpoint Rack is part of how I considered that looking at a hardpoint Triple Turret with 3 Racks would have 12 Missiles, as 3 x 4 = 12. And allow a bit of mix and match if you installed Missile x2 (8 missiles) and Sand x1 (4 canisters) in a Triple; total of 12 items.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Condottiere » Fri May 05, 2017 12:21 am

It tends to be one of those futile exerises to try and reconcile the default turret with almost any number of varying weapon systems.

Two aspects that have to be considered is how much space the workstation takes up, and that in theory you can squeeze in four weapon systems in whatever volume remains.

One important point to note, ship performance is based on actual volume, that means the one tonne is total, and that includes any bits that happens to be sticking out.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby edpovi » Fri May 05, 2017 12:43 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 9:46 pm
...
I think the theory is that the standard socket for a turret is 1 dT. The turret itself extends beyond the hull and can be bigger than 1 dT.
...
This is RAW. The turret is supposed to be bigger than 1 dT.
...
I understand that a turret extends a bit beyond the hull (in a way that doesn't affect performance). However, one can infer that this amount (pass the hull) is generally less than 1 dT as the "Pop-up Turret" only requires 1 dT to "hide" the external bits back in the hull. [They even have a nice little picture of this]

But even allowing that extra bit of space, a Triple Turret with 36 missiles seems "overly optimistic" in it's space efficiency. :lol:

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 9:46 pm
...
The attack / PD / Sandcaster rules very specifically bans using a turret for more than one attack or PD action per round. Sandcasters have no such restriction. By RAW you can do both an attack (or PD) and (at least) a Disperse Sand reaction. Reactions seems to not be limited (except PD), so you can probably perform as many Disperse Sand reactions as you have canisters in the turret.
Thank you for that bit, I didn't notice that Disperse Sand reactions are potentially limited only by ammo.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby h1ro » Fri May 05, 2017 4:25 am

Turrets and the way they're handled in 2e seems to me, very much like a throwback to previous versions. I don't know what the deal is, why, when faced with an opportunity to pave a new way forward they stuck to what was already there. Granted, that's not true for everything.

I really think it would have been great if Mongoose had standardized things. For example, turrets draw power and then the weapons inside them draw power. Barbettes, bays and spinal mounts don't do this, the numbers are all rolled into one. The rules are sufficiently abstracted that the number of weapons in a turret is superfluous information. We don't know how many weapons are in a bay, why do we need to know how many are in a turret?
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby fireyphoenix22 » Fri May 05, 2017 7:20 am

We can all agree that a turret needs 1dt of space, this is for fire control, "ie gunner station". this 1dton is located inside the ship.
Now weapons take up 1dt, "ie lasers, missiles, sand casters.
you can fit three 1dt weapons in a triple turret, therefore the turret above the hull must be 3 dtons.
i realize this goes against RAW, but common sense must be observed, you can not cram 3, 1 dton weapon systems into a tiny 1 dton turret, AND think you can then throw in another 1dton magazines worth of missiles.

plasma and fusion guns can only be found in a double turret, 1.5dt weapon systems ea.

particle accelerators can only be found in a triple turret , "ie 3dton weapon systems ea.

Barbette take up 5dtons of space, but they dont ask for an additional 1dton fire control, which they should.

the rules should be amended to follow these guidelines, but i digress as everyone will play as they see fit.

thank you for listening to my rant
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Fri May 05, 2017 8:26 am

I've personally chosen the interpretation that a turret may mount a missile rack. This rack can have one or several launch tubes, but it's still a single rack, and thus a turret can hold 12 missiles, regardless if it's a single or triple turret - otherwise a missile barrette would hold less ammo than a turret, which seems weird to me.

This means that three firmpoint missile racks will equal one triple turret, both in storage and rate of fire, and it can be argued that a single missile turret should thus only hold 4 missiles, but I'm choosing to see a standard ship turret as large enough to always hold 12 missiles.

One thing to consider is that the way missiles are packed affects the space they need. Look at handgun bullets: when loaded into a magazine, ready to fire, they take up very little space, but packed for secure storage/transport, in a foam tray with individual slots for each bullet, they'll require much more space. The same might be true for missiles in Traveller.

When it comes to autoloaders, I'm torn. It's obvious that the turret/barbette/bay can automatically load the next round from the internal magazine, but what about when it runs out? It sounds extremely silly to have to manually carry new missiles to the turret, but the rules say that reloading a turret takes one combat round - could this be the time needed for the autoloaders to refill the magazine?

If a large missile storage near the turret allows uninterrupted firing it does take away some of the limitations on firmpoint launchers, but they still lose out on some internal storage.

In the end, it doesn't really matter either way, as long as everyone plays by the same rules within the same campaign or gaming group - as long as they're not attending a fleet wargame tournament of some kind. Just decide one way or the other and play it your way and have fun :)
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri May 05, 2017 8:28 am

For simplicity I would choose your approach 2: No ammunition in turrets, if I wanted to house rule this.

And limit sandcasters to one reaction / round.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri May 05, 2017 8:41 am

h1ro wrote: Looking at the missile rules on page 161 of the Core Rule Book, I'd say a single missile rack in a turret would launch 1 missile, a double turret 2 missiles etc with each turret being considered a salvo and multiple missiles applying a DM to the roll to hit as per the Missiles and Targets rule on page 162 of the CRB.
All the missiles launched by a single ship (or squadron) against a single target is a salvo, regardless of the source.

So, if you have a missile barbette and two triple missile turrets, you could launch 5 + 2 × 3 = 11 missiles against up to 11 targets, e.g. 6 missiles against target A, 4 missiles against target B, and 1 missile against target C. Each target would be a salvo.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri May 05, 2017 8:57 am

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: When it comes to autoloaders, I'm torn. It's obvious that the turret/barbette/bay can automatically load the next round from the internal magazine, but what about when it runs out? It sounds extremely silly to have to manually carry new missiles to the turret, but the rules say that reloading a turret takes one combat round - could this be the time needed for the autoloaders to refill the magazine?
I house rule it to:

Ships with dedicated magazines next to the weapon mount are assumed to have autoloaders that continuously feed new ammo.

Ships that just plops in a turret in a standard socket store additional ammo in the cargo hold, and has to transport and reload it manually. Transporting the ammo trough narrow corridors takes non-trivial effort.


Given the deadliness of missiles it's unlikely you really need more than 12 rounds worth of ammo anyway...
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Fri May 05, 2017 9:36 am

That's a really good idea, I like it! *steals it*

Another thing I like to do is to allow the gunner to choose freely between the currently loaded missiles in the magazine when firing. A small bay with its 12 reloads could have 8 sets of regular missiles, 2 with multi-warhead nukes and 2 with frag for instance, letting the operator launch a frag salvo against incoming hostile missiles without needing a reload action to get the proper warhead.

The same goes for the 25 missiles in a barbette, 12 in a turret and 4 in a firmpoint, and gives larger launchers a wider variety, especially compared to a missile-fighter with only 4 to choose from. Autoloaders could work with this system, automatically filling the same kind of ammo unless instructed to change loadout.

A triple turret could choose any combo within the 12 ready missiles, 4 frag 4 multi-warhead 4 decoy could launch triple frag, 2 multi and a decoy or any other mix.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Condottiere » Fri May 05, 2017 10:52 am

Wait until you try to fit in enlarged weapon systems using the primitive and advanced options.

Even without that, how much actual volume does a missile take up, and what are the default dimensions?

Then try to imagine how you manhandle those within the confines of fourteen cubic metres, plus workstation, plus launcher(s).
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby fireyphoenix22 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:42 pm

calling all 3d artists,

your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to design, both internal and external components of the traveller turret .

good luck, and if your team is either captured or killed, the imperium intelligence committee, will disavow any knowledge of your actions.

the message will now self destruct .
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Juums » Fri May 05, 2017 12:54 pm

I've basically ceased using turret-based missiles for the reason this thread exists. It's just a pain in the butt house-ruling your way through the ammo storage issues.

My cutting of the Gordian knot, FWIW, was just to declare all "missile racks" essentially VLS systems whose ordnance soft-launch and orientate towards the target before igniting their main burn. Mechanically, all you're doing at that point is paying for missile storage with a fixed hardpoint to actually launch the missiles from. Means you can only launch 1 missile/round per hardpoint at that point, but I've found that removes a fair bit of the rocket tag problem adventurer-scale ships face from missile racks in triple turrets and that it gives missile barbettes a needed shot in the arm.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby h1ro » Fri May 05, 2017 2:14 pm

Juums wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 12:54 pm
I've basically ceased using turret-based missiles for the reason this thread exists. It's just a pain in the butt house-ruling your way through the ammo storage issues.

My cutting of the Gordian knot, FWIW, was just to declare all "missile racks" essentially VLS systems whose ordnance soft-launch and orientate towards the target before igniting their main burn. Mechanically, all you're doing at that point is paying for missile storage with a fixed hardpoint to actually launch the missiles from. Means you can only launch 1 missile/round per hardpoint at that point, but I've found that removes a fair bit of the rocket tag problem adventurer-scale ships face from missile racks in triple turrets and that it gives missile barbettes a needed shot in the arm.
It's a good solution.
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Re: High Guard 2e Turret and Ammo

Postby Condottiere » Fri May 05, 2017 6:12 pm

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