Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

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Spartan159
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Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Spartan159 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:57 am

Page 46, Hardened Systems. Would this protect against EMP as well as Ion? How are EMP effects implemented in Traveller, anyway? Are there rules somewhere?
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby bluekieran » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:07 am

Yes. I think EMP and Ion are pretty much the same thing in 2e.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:20 pm

Quite:
New Weapon Trait: Ion
By means of massive electromagnetic pulses, overloading or power systems or other exotic effects, ...
EMP is specifically damage type "Ion".
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Spartan159 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 pm

So hardening protects against Nuclear/Stellar EMP then? Good. Except now I'm back to wondering why 3I Navy ships are not hardened... /shrug
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:26 pm

Spartan159 wrote: Except now I'm back to wondering why 3I Navy ships are not hardened... /shrug
Because hardening didn't exist in CT? The naval ships in High Guard appear to be remakes of ships from Supplement 9.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby AndrewW » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:06 am

Spartan159 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 pm
So hardening protects against Nuclear/Stellar EMP then? Good. Except now I'm back to wondering why 3I Navy ships are not hardened... /shrug
They don't need to be as far as Ion weapons go as they aren't part of the Third Imperium setting.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Spartan159 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:59 am

AndrewW wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:06 am
Spartan159 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 pm
So hardening protects against Nuclear/Stellar EMP then? Good. Except now I'm back to wondering why 3I Navy ships are not hardened... /shrug
They don't need to be as far as Ion weapons go as they aren't part of the Third Imperium setting.
No, but nukes and stellar flares sure are. I'd expect the Darrians to harden everything.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:24 pm

AndrewW wrote: They don't need to be as far as Ion weapons go as they aren't part of the Third Imperium setting.
How do the rest of us we know that? Is there anything in the books to hint at that?
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Condottiere » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:36 pm

It's a rather recent introduction into the ship design process.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Nobby-W » Fri May 19, 2017 11:59 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:26 pm
Spartan159 wrote: Except now I'm back to wondering why 3I Navy ships are not hardened... /shrug
Because hardening didn't exist in CT? The naval ships in High Guard appear to be remakes of ships from Supplement 9.
No. LBB5 High Guard definitely had /fib computer variants, which were hardened against radiation damage done by particle accelerators, meson guns or nuclear missiles. /fib computers were larger and more expensive than their standard counterparts.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Condottiere » Fri May 19, 2017 12:11 pm

I think the simplistic solution was fibre optics, and I do believe that chipmakers are examining how to use light instead of electrical impulses to minimize heat and speed up information flow.

Whether that actually would make the electronics bulkier and more expensive, unlikely.

Heavy lead shielding or some future equivalent.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri May 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Nobby-W wrote: No. LBB5 High Guard definitely had /fib computer variants, which were hardened against radiation damage done by particle accelerators, meson guns or nuclear missiles. /fib computers were larger and more expensive than their standard counterparts.
Certainly there were fiberoptic computers, but there were no generic hardening.

And not by coincidence, the military ships in MgT2 HG have fiberoptic computers, but no other hardening.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby AndrewW » Fri May 19, 2017 5:41 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 4:57 pm
And not by coincidence, the military ships in MgT2 HG have fiberoptic computers, but no other hardening.
Most of those where based on what the ship had in Classic.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Condottiere » Fri May 19, 2017 8:00 pm

That's still a Seventies perception of how computers work.

There is a difference between redundancy, having a second network of electronics who are shut off to protect them against an electromagnetic pulse, and hardened, which protects the current operating network.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby phavoc » Fri May 19, 2017 9:55 pm

Better analogy might be satellite control systems. They are typically launched with an 8x - 10x redundancy, allowing for massive degradation before it effects their operations. They can also be remotely re-written and updated.

There are also computer chips today that are impervious to EMP effects. But they aren't cheap, and they are only in use for specific military gear. In theory they would be immune to the effect of ion weapons or other disruptive weapons. Diamond-based IC's are predicted to break Moore's law and leapfrog past the current limitations of silicon (some variants are also immune to EMP effect)
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Nobby-W » Sat May 20, 2017 12:49 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 4:57 pm
[ . . . ]
Certainly there were fiberoptic computers, but there were no generic hardening.
Computers were the only electronic components in High Guard that had any effect on play. In OTU-speak, /fib = hardened. The only things affected in the rules by this, though, was their ability to ignore damage from weapons that did radiation damage. All computers were assumed to be able to operate in normal space conditions, including (by implication) high-radiation environments like the vicinity of gas giants. However the rules did not specify anything about redundancy or the specifics of the effects of radiation flux.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Condottiere » Sat May 20, 2017 7:43 am

AMD is now doing fourteen nanometres, and promises to shrink to seven on the next tok, but with the same architecture.

Intel will probably hit the wall at five nanometres.

I recall that plastic chips, or carbon, will be cheaper though somewhat slower, to produce, which I think implied that throwaway electronics were supposed to have been made from them.

The thing about satellites is that you can't really send up someone up to repair components, so lots of redundancy was built in.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Nobby-W » Sat May 20, 2017 1:35 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 7:43 am
[ . . . ]
The thing about satellites is that you can't really send up someone up to repair components, so lots of redundancy was built in.
With our current tech, sending a mission up to repair a satellite isn't normally cost-effective. However, with something like a pinnace it might be quite feasible to send up a repair technician, or even drop a replacement satellite in orbit and bring the faulty one down for repair. Space junk would also be less of a problem, as de-orbiting and refurbishing satellites would be quite economical. However, as with any flight systems you would still expect to have redundancy and rad-hardened kit.
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Re: Hardened Systems, Highguard 2e

Postby Condottiere » Sun May 21, 2017 11:39 am

The USAF has a dronish space shuttle, that the Chinese and Russians are alarmed about, since it can operate quite a long time in orbit, and pick a lot of stuff.

You could use it to repair your own orbital gear, or get a closer look at someone else's.

The Boeing X-37, also known as the Orbital Test Vehicle (OTV), is a reusable unmanned spacecraft. It is boosted into space by a launch vehicle, then re-enters Earth's atmosphere and lands as a spaceplane. The X-37 is operated by the United States Air Force for orbital spaceflight missions intended to demonstrate reusable space technologies.[4] It is a 120%-scaled derivative of the earlier Boeing X-40.
The X-37 began as a NASA project in 1999, before being transferred to the U.S. Department of Defense in 2004. It conducted its first flight as a drop test on 7 April 2006, at Edwards Air Force Base, California. The spaceplane's first orbital mission, USA-212, was launched on 22 April 2010 using an Atlas V rocket. Its successful return to Earth on 3 December 2010 was the first test of the vehicle's heat shield and hypersonic aerodynamic handling. A second X-37 was launched on 5 March 2011, with the mission designation USA-226; it returned to Earth on 16 June 2012. A third X-37 mission, USA-240, launched on 11 December 2012 and landed at Vandenberg AFB on 17 October 2014. The fourth X-37 mission, USA-261, launched on 20 May 2015 and landed on 7 May 2017 at Kennedy Space Center.

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