Items 1 tech higher

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Jak Nazryth
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Items 1 tech higher

Postby Jak Nazryth » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:13 pm

Sorry for the stupid subject line...
Doing very last minute prep for my game.
One of the players who is long time Traveller player says you can get items on worlds that are 1 tech higher than the TL listed on the world you happen to be on.
In particular, starships.
Can you buy, repair, upgrade a TL 14 Starship on a TL 13 world?
Can you have a TL 14 shipyard on a TL 13 world???
Can you find and buy TL 13 gear on a TL 12 world?

I can't seem to find that rule anywhere, though I know I've seen it somewhere...
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:26 pm

I don't recognise that either.

The general definition is that if TL12 items are generally available the world is TL12. If TL13 items were generally available the world would be TL13.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Infojunky » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:28 am

Jak Nazryth wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:13 pm

In particular, starships.
Can you buy, repair, upgrade a TL 14 Starship on a TL 13 world?
Can you have a TL 14 shipyard on a TL 13 world???
Can you find and buy TL 13 gear on a TL 12 world?
Yes, but it will cost you....
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Saladman » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:36 am

1e CSC suggests imported gear may be available near a class C or better starport, but away from the starport the local tech level prevails. Suggested price increases are 25% higher than list for 1 TL difference, 50% higher for 2 TL, and double the price for 3 TL higher. Gear with a higher TL difference would likely have to be special ordered.

Some GM discretion should go without saying. Finding a higher-TL weapon on a high law level world is unlikely for instance, since there's no reason to import it and expect to find a buyer, regardless of whatever other general guideline you're using.

All the above is for equipment list type stuff though. I haven't dug into shipbuilding in a while, but my knee-jerk ruling would be that since TL in a connected universe is basically defined by what the local manufacturing capability is, that a shipyard's TL is it's world's TL. I don't see anything under maintenance about a minimum TL for the shipyard, but for new construction and upgrades I would assume your stuck with what's locally available.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby locarno24 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:49 am

Sounds about right. A Class C or better starport and surrounding 'startown' is essentially Imperial territory, and it's not unreasonable to expect that TL12-15 stuff will be there in some quantity if you can find the right parties and pay for it.

Definitely new construction would be limited by the world's capacity. Major structural repair, probably the same (imagine trying to cut bonded superdense plating with modern welding gear!).

Minor repairs and maintenance - you can probably find 'high TL specialists'; if a world is on a major trade route, for example, and is only TL11, it'll still see enough TL12-14 ships that some bright spark in a megacorp will have established a field service engineer's workshop to do monthly maintenance inspections and layovers.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Saladman » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:32 pm

If nothing else, and you think a particular item a player is after could go either way, you can just throw dice at it and ask for a Broker or possibly a Streetwise check to find one.
Jak Nazryth
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Jak Nazryth » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:08 pm

I've always known you can find slightly higher tech when it comes to equipment and gear in and around a startport. A TL-13 laser pistol isn't hard to find in a Class A,B, of C starport on a TL-12 world. No big deal.

This has more to do with where you can purchase and repair starships.
The person in question is stating that they can purchase and/or repair a TL-14 ship on a ship yard on a TL-13 world.

That's what he does in his game, and that's his expectation in my game that starts tomorrow.
I'm not apposed to that, I just want to see where it is in the rules. I can't find it, of course there are dozens of supplements and a hundred or more S&P issues?

If this isn't an actual rule in writing, what is the general consensus?
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby ochd » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:17 pm

Highguard 2e page 8 says "Before you start building your ship, decide on the Tech Level of the ship yard that will construct it. This is the maximum Tech Level available for any given component you add, and will also serve as the overall Tech Level of the ship itself."

But then there is a chapter on primitive and advanced spacecraft, which applies rules for varying the tech level of individual components up and down. That might be relevant.

Not sure if that helps.

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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Condottiere » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:45 pm

If the demand is there, someone will open up a Mercedes dealership, or Apple, or Rolls Royce.

That would guarantee the quality of the item, and a place to get it repaired, if necessary.

Otherwise, there's a chance you're being hoodwinked.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Jak Nazryth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:25 am

Lets get as specific as I can. :)
I'm starting my game in the Tobia Sub-Sector, Trojan Reach.
If my game starts at Hexx, can the players buy a TL-14 ship?
(One of the players has a huge level of experience with traveller and likes to create his own ships for the party, usually TL-14 so he can get bonded super dense armor)
Hex is TL-D but it's "non-industrial". Perhaps because it's 80% water?

Anyone can have a dealership I suppose. The the ships are produced on Tobia itself, TL-D and shipped elsewhere to dealerships across the sub-sector.
I think that might be ok.
But if they need repairs or an overhaul, I'm not sure a non-industrial world would be appropriate for something as complicated as a shipyard.

The other option is Albe in the Sindal Sub-sector, TL-E, but it is a "hell-world" based on the travellermap.com info.
Are "hell worlds" even survivable without specialized gear? travellermap.com info is a bit strange on the system remarks...Under resources it says "extremely abundant" under the system remarks it says... desert hellworld, high population, industrialized, poor. Which is a weird combination, if an extremely abundant resourced, high tech, high pop, industrialized world and one of the most important planets of the subsector, how can it be a poor planet? Shouldn't it be rich?
But I digress.
Looking for a jumping off point for my game tomorrow.
Goal is to find a place that is appropriate to pick up their ship (be it new or used) that's also withing these 2 sub-sectors AND within the boarders of the 3I

Albe, Hexx, or Tobia seem perfect place to begin my campaign, particularly since the party will most likely begin with a "not from the book" ship in the TL-14 range.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:12 am

You're the Referee, you make the rules.

Normally a TL-13 world produces (up to) TL-13 ships. If you want a TL-14 ship you could order it from a TL-14 yard and have it delivered (at a price). Or you could travel to a TL-14 yard, this might even be a nice intro adventure. Having a special-order ship made might take a year or two.

Or you might rule that this particular yard is TL-14 or even TL-15, even if the worlds TL is lower, perhaps operated by an interstellar entity.

You might find used ships of any TL locally.

You're the Referee, you make the rules.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 am

This is a holdover from CT days.

Under LBB2 you didn't need to worry about local world TL for shipbuilding or maintenance (any A or B starport can be used for annual maintenance regardless of ship TL vs world TL). The assumption is that all those trade lanes... trade. High tech stuff is shipped to type A starports so that ships can be maintained (and built in the first place).
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby xnet445 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 pm

We always played that Class A-C starports were at least T12 or could support the jump drives required to reach them, whichever was higher. I don't recall a rule like the one you are looking for, but it's been a long time since I actually played the game.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Condottiere » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:19 pm

The assumption was that software regulated parsec range, as long as the hardware was large enough.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Nobby-W » Tue May 02, 2017 8:08 pm

One could say that higher tech items might be imported, but would cost more. A repair facility at a starport might import high tech parts to repair a ship of 1-2 tech levels higher than the local economy, but this might come at additional cost and a possibility that there could be a delay in obtaining the parts.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby locarno24 » Wed May 03, 2017 8:42 am

Exactly. I agree with the suggestion that going above the world's nominal TL is a good reason to ask for a Broker, Streetwise or similar check; such stuff isn't unavailable, any more than high-end electronics and scientific equipment are unavailable in countries which don't have the industrial base to support them today. You just need to find appropriate suppliers and be prepared to pay the costs required.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
Jak Nazryth
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Jak Nazryth » Wed May 03, 2017 9:24 pm

I suppose if the base hull matches the TL of the ship yard, other higher TL components (like drives) can be shipped in from other higher tech manufacturing facilities and simply install them.
I'm not sure about armor though.
Bonded Superdence is TL-14, so can a TL 12 shipyard build a TL-12 hull encased in BSD?
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby paltrysum » Wed May 03, 2017 10:13 pm

Jak Nazryth wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:25 am
The other option is Albe in the Sindal Sub-sector, TL-E, but it is a "hell-world" based on the travellermap.com info.
Are "hell worlds" even survivable without specialized gear? travellermap.com info is a bit strange on the system remarks...Under resources it says "extremely abundant" under the system remarks it says... desert hellworld, high population, industrialized, poor. Which is a weird combination, if an extremely abundant resourced, high tech, high pop, industrialized world and one of the most important planets of the subsector, how can it be a poor planet? Shouldn't it be rich?
But I digress.
Looking for a jumping off point for my game tomorrow.
Goal is to find a place that is appropriate to pick up their ship (be it new or used) that's also withing these 2 sub-sectors AND within the boarders of the 3I

Albe, Hexx, or Tobia seem perfect place to begin my campaign, particularly since the party will most likely begin with a "not from the book" ship in the TL-14 range.

Any thoughts?
"Hell world" is not a designation from CT or MgT1-2, so I would ignore that. Sure, it's an unpleasant place without a high tech buffer, but "hell"? Come on!

In any case, there are many reasons a world with a poor, non-industrial, or other seemingly contradictory designation would be high-tech and/or high pop. Those reasons are between the lines. For example,
  • perhaps Albe established itself as a trade hub
  • maybe one of the other worlds in its stellar system (i.e., not the main world) was rich in mineral resources, thereby attracting tons of people and R&D
  • could be it used to be a great place and some disaster (human-caused or otherwise) deteriorated its stats, but by that time a culture of innovation that had attracted billions of people had taken hold
It's really up to you, but as a fellow ref, imagining why contradictory statistics exist in Traveller UWPs is one of my favorite things to decipher. I'm writing an adventure right now in which Caldos is a planet the travellers visit. Why is Caldos in better shape than Sagan or Janus when on the surface it's not a very impressive place? There's a reason and coming up with it is pretty fun.

As for your original question, you're the ref, so you can do as you see fit. Personally, if a world is of a certain TL, I view it that that is either their typical manufacturing level or the level they're able to otherwise keep a constant supply of. For example, Albe is a highly populated system. I would assume they're good at rousing their population to keep that TL up with innovation and quality manufacturing somehow. On the other hand, how does Theev have a TL 14 on such a low-pop world that's allegedly run by pirates? I'd assume they have some manufacturing capability, but given their small size, their TL could be a more a reflection of their ability to obtain and maintain high tech. There are other possibilities as well. Floria leverages Ancient tech to keep its TL at 15.

If a world has a TL of 12, I say that it's pretty easy to come by TL-12 goods. Getting something higher than that is not going to be easy. It's not made there so they're going to have to buy it on the secondary or black market. In addition, it might not be well maintained, being that the traveller didn't just buy it fresh off the assembly line.

As for starship dealerships, I don't really imagine such a thing would exist, except on the highest population worlds in safe regions. There would be little profit in it and a lot of danger in or near the frontier.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby Condottiere » Thu May 04, 2017 12:39 am

One explanation regarding armour plating would be, that you might require technological level fourteen tooling to fuse bonded superdense material to the hull.

I'm not saying that's correct, it's in lieu for any explanation in the rules.
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Re: Items 1 tech higher

Postby steve98052 » Sat May 27, 2017 5:38 pm

Every manufactured item has a TL, and only worlds of that TL can make it at any price. (There are early prototype rules that complicate that statement, but you probably don't want an expensive, unreliable prototype unless you're working under an embargo.) If the item can't be made locally, it has to be imported. So if you want a ship with a TL14 hull built at a TL13 shipyard, you will have to find the number of jumps to the nearest TL14 shipyard and add the time to send the order there, the time to get the finished hull dispatched aboard a sufficiently large cargo ship, and the time to actually deliver it. You'll also need to pay for the shipping across those jumps, and the cargo fee for an entire hull could be pretty steep. The good news is that if there's a lot of trade along that route, the shipping company might give you a discount for the cargo that can be transported inside your new hull, though that adds to the cost of loading and unloading so the discount is limited.

An additional complication is that for a special order, communication with the naval architect would be limited by the jump lag for revisions to the design, unless the people ordering had a lot of trust in the distant architect.

Besides the hull, there are probably other components that need to be ordered rather than built locally. If you want to be able to install and control TL14 weapons, you'll need a TL14 bridge. If you want Jump-5 (or the ability to install the drive into a smaller ship that could do Jump-5), you need a TL14 jump drive. If you're using TL14 drives, power-hungry weapons, etc., you may need a TL14 power plant. And all that stuff requires TL14 maintenance.

It doesn't take long before it looks like the best plan is to travel to a TL14 shipyard if you want a TL14 ship.

Also, the matter of maintenance suggests a design strategy, space permitting. An advanced ship might be stranded until a mobile shipyard can be dispatched, if it can't be repaired close enough to where it might have a failure. So it might pay to install an auxiliary bridge and backup jump drive. A TL10 bridge and a TL10 Jump-1 drive could be maintained on far more worlds to allow a mostly TL14 ship to limp to a TL14 shipyard for repairs. To reduce the space required by those backup components, the bridge might be specialized for Jump-1 operations only (leaving maneuver and everything else under the control of the main bridge). The backup drive might be a module without the normal maintenance access, which would require it to be removed from the ship for maintenance, but save space.

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