Ships of the French Arm

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vladthemad
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Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:00 pm

Uh...so we are getting a campaign together and two of my players rolled ship shares as mustering out benefits. While they were deciding on a ship, various differences between Ships of the French Arm and pretty much every other ship found in any of the books popped up.

So, basically, where the heck are the rules that add water storage, food storage, change the cost of state rooms, add facings to weapons, and about a hundred other items that aren't in MgT1 anywhere that I can find?
AndrewW
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby AndrewW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:55 am

vladthemad wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:00 pm
Uh...so we are getting a campaign together and two of my players rolled ship shares as mustering out benefits. While they were deciding on a ship, various differences between Ships of the French Arm and pretty much every other ship found in any of the books popped up.

So, basically, where the heck are the rules that add water storage, food storage, change the cost of state rooms, add facings to weapons, and about a hundred other items that aren't in MgT1 anywhere that I can find?
The 2300AD Core Rulebook.

Based on Traveller and uses the Traveller rules for the most part but is a separate line/setting:

www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/2300ad.html
Hopeless
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby Hopeless » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:38 am

Any update on the 2e version of the T2300 series?

For the record this is the only book i went through just to find an appropriate automated transport! :oops:
vladthemad
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:29 pm

TL;DR - The Ships of the French Arm book is using a different rule set, where do I find this rule set?
AndrewW wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:55 am
The 2300AD Core Rulebook.

Based on Traveller and uses the Traveller rules for the most part but is a separate line/setting:

www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/2300ad.html
Wait, what? You linked the catalog of books for MgT 2300ad, and there are no answers to be found there. I already own all those books, and we've been going through them with a microscope to try and figure these questions out. Again, The Ships of the French Arm book appears to be operating from a very different ruleset, as there are numerous items listed for each ship that aren't in the MgT1 ruleset or the modified rules from 2300ad. Hence the reason I came here to ask.

Here are some specific examples of things that don't jive with the rules. This is for the Krupp 821 in the Ships of the French Arm book:
Landing Gear (Pads) Size 5.33dT, cost MLv0.2665. This is not listed anywhere in any rule book I can find. Clearly it's formulaic too, given the odd size and cost.
Radiation Shield Costs MLv4. The rules state it's MLv0.1xTons of ship, so it should be MLv40. Most of the ships in the Ships of the French Arm book have them, practically no other ship in any of the books for 2300ad do.
Time-to-Orbit is 6.08 minutes. The 2300ad rules state it's (UWP Size/(2xAccel)), which for this ship should be 1.16 hrs.
Reaction Fuel Appears to some how be related to time to orbit. The 2300ad rules set would make it 24dT of fuel per HOUR, the Krupp 821 uses 21.91dT for 6.08 mins.
Power Plant weight and cost matches the 2300ad rules, but fuel consumption is way off. 14 days fuel should be 0.07x24x14=23.52dT of fuel. The Ships of the French Arm lists 67.35dT of fuel.

And that's just for the Krupp 821. The Krupp isn't even a very complicated ship. I didn't want to start crunching numbers on things with weaponry and spin habs. All the ships in the Ships of the French Arm have the galley, freshers, safety lockers, food storage, waste storage, and water storage all have a separate cost and space listed. All rules I've found state that this should all be included in staterooms. For the items listed that do have an entry in the 2300ad or Traveller rules, the costs or weights aren't correct. The library for example costs MLv0.5, but in the 2300ad rules it states it should cost MLv4.

It's pretty clear that the rules have been changed, as all the ships in the Ships of the French Arm book are more "realistic". Times to orbit are more in line with real world times, all ships should really have radiation shielding, landing gear type should be a thing, etc. The problem is, these rules aren't to be found anywhere in any of the books currently available 2300AD, MgT1, or any of the supplements like High Guard. So, as noted in the TL;DR, where the heck are these rules?
AndrewW
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby AndrewW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:42 pm

vladthemad wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:29 pm
It's pretty clear that the rules have been changed, as all the ships in the Ships of the French Arm book are more "realistic". Times to orbit are more in line with real world times, all ships should really have radiation shielding, landing gear type should be a thing, etc. The problem is, these rules aren't to be found anywhere in any of the books currently available 2300AD, MgT1, or any of the supplements like High Guard. So, as noted in the TL;DR, where the heck are these rules?
Have you got the Revised Edition Rules? (Available from the 2300AD Core Rulebook page, at the bottom). There where some rule changes that effect the ships. Not that all of that is there, I'll nudge Colin.
Colin
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby Colin » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:15 pm

Hey...

So, yeah... The ships in Ships of the French Arm were designed using a different design sequence, the Aerospace Engineer's Handbook. The intent was to publish this design sequence shortly thereafter, but there were some issues. Then v2 of Traveller was announced, and I had to revamp the design rules yet again. It's gone through a lot of iterations since, in the need to balance a sense of realism with minimal complexity.

The Aerospace Engineer's Handbook will be released as part of v2 of 2300AD, both of which are in the hands of the Mongeese at the moment. My understanding is that the new 2300AD Core Book will go to layout in the fall of this year. I'm taking another pass at it now that I've been able to take a breather from it.

If you have any questions about the original Aerospace Engineer's Handbook, the one used in Ships of the French Arm, post your questions here, and I will address them.
vladthemad
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:56 am

AndrewW wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:42 pm
Have you got the Revised Edition Rules? (Available from the 2300AD Core Rulebook page, at the bottom). There where some rule changes that effect the ships. Not that all of that is there, I'll nudge Colin.
Yes, I have the revised edition. Colin has explained the problem, so thanks for nudging him. Now I just need to find a solution...
Colin wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:15 pm
Hey...

So, yeah... The ships in Ships of the French Arm were designed using a different design sequence, the Aerospace Engineer's Handbook. The intent was to publish this design sequence shortly thereafter, but there were some issues. Then v2 of Traveller was announced, and I had to revamp the design rules yet again. It's gone through a lot of iterations since, in the need to balance a sense of realism with minimal complexity.

The Aerospace Engineer's Handbook will be released as part of v2 of 2300AD, both of which are in the hands of the Mongeese at the moment. My understanding is that the new 2300AD Core Book will go to layout in the fall of this year. I'm taking another pass at it now that I've been able to take a breather from it.

If you have any questions about the original Aerospace Engineer's Handbook, the one used in Ships of the French Arm, post your questions here, and I will address them.
Well Hell, where do I start? I'm not planning on getting into MgT2. I was part of the beta, and the process and certain forum members left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. Even if I was interested in MgT2, I'm trying to run the 2300ad campaign now, making the possible release date of sometime in the fall of little use. :) The entire Ships of the French Arm is currently of limited use, because of the numerous changes that don't match the rules that are available. Just looking at the Ship Descriptions section on pp5-11, I see there's a large amount of possible items added. On top of that, I don't know what old items have been modified or changed. The only noted change in the Ships of the French Arm is the time to orbit formula on page 3. Some of the other items are self explanatory, but not everything is so easily understood, and without the rules I can't fix/change other ships that are available in other books.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't really know what I don't know. What are the chances of you getting to telling me everything that's changed, all the costs and weights involved, and any formulas I should know regarding the updated and now abandoned modifications to ship construction? :)
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby h1ro » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:44 am

Last I read, first edition Mongoose is being put out to pasture. If that's true and the line is basically dead how about releasing the first edition Aerospace Engineer's Handbook as is under say an OGL so that the community could work on it and share it?

Ok, now I typed that I know it won't happen as it will potentially conflict with 2e future releases but it would make an excellent addition to the Cepheus Engine.
vladthemad
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:36 am

h1ro wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:44 am
Last I read, first edition Mongoose is being put out to pasture. If that's true and the line is basically dead how about releasing the first edition Aerospace Engineer's Handbook as is under say an OGL so that the community could work on it and share it?

Ok, now I typed that I know it won't happen as it will potentially conflict with 2e future releases but it would make an excellent addition to the Cepheus Engine.
I'd love a copy of it myself to be honest. I'm confused as to why, if it was almost ready to go (which it must have been to use it to create the Ships of the French Arm book) that Mongoose decided to postpone it for over three years because they were thinking about a 2nd edition of Traveller. Seems like a missed opportunity, especially if it was only issued in electronic format.
vladthemad
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:24 am

Wait, so it was or wasn't issued, is or isn't ready for release? I've seen a few places to get a pre-order that looked sketchy, but this guy has a very high user rating and seems to be selling pre-orders too...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191932420919
h1ro
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby h1ro » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:32 am

I'd guess he just doesn't update his eBay shop very often, I would most certainly own a copy if the AEH was released and it's not listed on either Mongooses shop or their pages on DTRPG.
vladthemad
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:53 am

h1ro wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:32 am
I'd guess he just doesn't update his eBay shop very often, I would most certainly own a copy if the AEH was released and it's not listed on either Mongooses shop or their pages on DTRPG.
You'd think, except it says the poster updated the listing in January. So what's he know that we don't? Come on, positive thinking...maybe it's being released but no one was supposed to know about it. Gag order on Colin and everything. ;)
Colin
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby Colin » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:42 pm

The rules themselves were good, but some of the work around them was not. Since it was my work, I can be honest about it. I've had some life challenges over the last few years, which is at the root of the slow release of material for 2300AD. I expect changes there soon.

The biggest change was the way surface-to-orbit times were handled. Most of the other additions came from High Guard.

I will go back and review that edition of the AEH. Perhaps there is something there that can be published in some form. In any case, I will review, within the next week, the two design systems, and try to post any significant differences.
h1ro
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby h1ro » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:03 pm

Cool!

Look forward to it. :D
vladthemad
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Re: Ships of the French Arm

Postby vladthemad » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:35 am

Colin wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:42 pm
The rules themselves were good, but some of the work around them was not. Since it was my work, I can be honest about it. I've had some life challenges over the last few years, which is at the root of the slow release of material for 2300AD. I expect changes there soon.

The biggest change was the way surface-to-orbit times were handled. Most of the other additions came from High Guard.

I will go back and review that edition of the AEH. Perhaps there is something there that can be published in some form. In any case, I will review, within the next week, the two design systems, and try to post any significant differences.
Mostly the mechanics are what's needed regarding any changes. There are some additions that I don't think came from the original High Guard. Were you taking rules from Second Edition?

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