The Lego Ship System

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AnotherDilbert
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The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:05 pm

The latest in flexible ships is the Lego ship system. It is a breakaway hull system where breakaway sections can be combined like Lego pieces into the desired ship. The ship can later be expanded by adding more sections.

A basic ship might be a command section in the front with a bridge and a few staterooms, a payload section in the middle, and a drive section in the rear. If we want to increase performance we can add another drive section.

Basic Sections include:
Command Section: 30 dT, 10 dT bridge, Computer m10/bis, Sensors, 3 staterooms, MCr 8.7
Command Section: 40 dT, 20 dT bridge, Computer m10/bis, Sensors, 3 staterooms, MCr 9.9
Basic Drive: 20 dT, 200 dT thrust, Jump-1 for 200 dT, MCr 15.7
Extra Drive: 10 dT, 100 dT thrust, Jump-1 for 100 dT, MCr 5.6
Thrust: 5 dT, 200 dT thrust, MCr 5

HabCargo: 50 dT, 4 staterooms, airlock, 24 dT cargo, MCr 7
Habitation: 50 dT, 9 staterooms, lounge (library), airlock, MCr 12.8
Habitation: 40 dT, 7 staterooms, lounge, airlock, MCr 7.9
Cargo: 50 dT, 47 dT cargo, 3 modules 10 dT (fuel/cargo), MCr 4.4
Cargo: 40 dT, 37 dT cargo, 3 modules 10 dT (fuel/cargo), MCr 3.7

Utility Craft: 5 dT, streamlined, 3G, cockpit, 2 dT cargo with collapsible tanks and foldable benches, MCr 0.9



A simple ship might be:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7), Cargo Section (50 dT, MCr 4.4), and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 15.7) for a total of 100 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 28.8.

If we want higher performance we can switch to:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7), Cargo Section (40 dT, MCr 3.7), Extra Drive Section (10 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 5.6), and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 15.7) for a total of 100 dT, J-3 and 3G, MCr 33.7.

If we want more payload we can insert more payload:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7),
Habitation (50 dT, MCr 12.8 ),
Cargo Section (50 dT, MCr 4.4),
Cargo Section (50 dT, MCr 4.4),
and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 15.7),
for a total of 200 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 46.

Again we can easily upgrade performance:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7),
Habitation (50 dT, MCr 12.8 ),
Cargo Section (40 dT, MCr 3.7),
Cargo Section (40 dT, MCr 3.7),
Extra Drive Section (10 dT, J-½, ½G, MCr 5.6),
Extra Drive Section (10 dT, J-½, ½G, MCr 5.6),
and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 15.7),
for a total of 200 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 55.8.



All sections have Breakaway connectors, cockpits, basic sensors, and m/5 computers. Command and habitation sections has 1G and 4 weeks endurance and can be used as lifeboats. Cargo sections has batteries that can only power life-support for a short time. Command and Extra Drive sections have space set aside for turrets.

The complete ships are not very cheap or efficient, but they are very flexible. You can start with a small ship and make it bigger as you make more money or needs change.
PsiTraveller
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby PsiTraveller » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:58 pm

I think it is a cool idea, but I think it might conflict with the rules somewhat.
I think your problem will show up when you look to arming the ship. If you connect two small units that both have turrets operational you break the 1 hardpoint per 100 ton rule.

The slightly more nitpicky argument might be made that the breakaway ship is designed as a certain size and the sub units for that ship are designed to be breakaway. There is no mention of forming bigger or smaller units. You could argue that you are designing a 10 000 ton ship with a lot of smaller units that are operating independently to get around that. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I like the flexibility it offers. You could have a 'Pusher' section of Jump Drive that will increase range for a Jump across a rift for example. The Pusher section has a bigger computer for the Jump calculations and a lot of Jump Drive tonnage.
AndrewW
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AndrewW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:02 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:58 pm
I think it is a cool idea, but I think it might conflict with the rules somewhat.
I think your problem will show up when you look to arming the ship. If you connect two small units that both have turrets operational you break the 1 hardpoint per 100 ton rule.

Hardpoints in relation to breakaway hull designs was actually discussed during development. It was left open so groups can do it whichever way they like, without being forced into ok, you can't do it this way or making a house rule.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Condottiere » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:43 pm

That's a pretty soft design system.

It may need some Viagra.
PsiTraveller
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby PsiTraveller » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:48 pm

Every sub unit of less than 100 tons would have firmpoints by its tonnage which would hamper larger connected ships.
Sections of 100 tons in size could have a hardpoint as per the tonnage rules. So you may have a ship with a shorter ranged weapons. Flexible in configuration, but undergunned compared to ships designed at larger tonnages.
PsiTraveller
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby PsiTraveller » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:29 pm

You might get away with designing in 100 ton blocks and each block has a turret. This bypasses the turret issue.

Just an idea.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:59 pm

PsiTraveller wrote: I think it is a cool idea, but I think it might conflict with the rules somewhat.
I think your problem will show up when you look to arming the ship. If you connect two small units that both have turrets operational you break the 1 hardpoint per 100 ton rule.
It's a problem, I would assume I could only use 1 turret per 100 dT.

By RAW the total ship has a limitation on hardpoints, not the sections. Technically you can make a small section, say 20 dT, with a hardpoint and hence a full turret.
PsiTraveller wrote: The slightly more nitpicky argument might be made that the breakaway ship is designed as a certain size and the sub units for that ship are designed to be breakaway. There is no mention of forming bigger or smaller units. You could argue that you are designing a 10 000 ton ship with a lot of smaller units that are operating independently to get around that. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
I agree I'm abusing the rules. The excuse I used was as you say "a 10 000 ton ship with a lot of smaller units". I assume that a ship with many sections can break away a single section and keep working as a ship. I also assume that a section can be replaced by another section with the same shape.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:58 am

The abuse would come if you then put 5 smaller 20T pieces, each with a full turret together to make a 100 ton ship with 5 turrets.
The other option is that as a 20 Ton piece it can only operate as a firmpoint and gets it range reduced. This would be a little awkward to explain if it was a missile turret with space for 12 missiles, or 36 as a triple turret and now they magically vanish?

I think if you wanted to support a turret your breakaway piece would have to be 100 tons at all times. That would be the smallest size of the lego pieces. It is a workaround for the 1 hardpoint per 100 ton rule.

Rules as written I do not think your lego ship is possible. It violates the hardpoint/ firmpoint split in tonnage. I am writing up in another thread something as an alternative that follows the rules. The Modular Lego ship. A core section that is 25 percent of the total ship and the rest is modular in 100 ton blocks, allowing for turrets. These could also be breakaway I guess. THe limitation for a modular ship is that the maximum size of ship is set at the beginning of the design, 4 times that of the core tonnage.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:39 am

PsiTraveller wrote: The abuse would come if you then put 5 smaller 20T pieces, each with a full turret together to make a 100 ton ship with 5 turrets.
Yes, that would be obviously illegal.
PsiTraveller wrote: The other option is that as a 20 Ton piece it can only operate as a firmpoint and gets it range reduced. This would be a little awkward to explain if it was a missile turret with space for 12 missiles, or 36 as a triple turret and now they magically vanish?
That would be too ridicilous, either it is a hardpoint or a firmpoint.
PsiTraveller wrote: Rules as written I do not think your lego ship is possible. It violates the hardpoint/ firmpoint split in tonnage.
I do not think that is a problem. The dynamic build of "Lego" pieces are a problem.


My reasoning is that the full combined breakaway hull is a ship, and obeys all rules for ships. Each breakaway section obeys the specific rules for breakaway sections.

One ship = one hull:
The first step in designing a ship is to build its hull – this is the body of the ship, its fuselage.
The full combined breakaway hull = one ship:
Breakaway Hulls: A ship can be designed so it can operate as two or more independent vessels, breaking or splitting away from one another. Each section must have an appropriate bridge and power plant to operate it.
Each section is not a separate "ship".

Note that the combined hull is used for Hull point calculations:
Hull points of each section will be proportionate to the total Hull points of the ship.
So a 105000 dT ship broken into 5 sections of 21000 dT each would have 105000 / 1.5 = 70000 Hull points and each section would have 14000 Hull points.

The full combined ship has a specified number of hardpoints:
A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull.
So as a simple example a 100 dT ship that breaks into two sections (of 50 dT each) is still a 100 dT ship and can have a single hardpoint. The hardpoint can be placed in any of the two sections.


As a corollary a 10 dT master bridge placed into a 50 dT section of a 250 dT combined ship is a small bridge, and a 6 dT bridge cannot be used to control the combined ship.


AndrewW has already stated that you can either treat the entire hull as a ship or treat each section as a ship, for hardpoint purposes, so I guess my interpretation is usable:
AndrewW wrote: Hardpoints in relation to breakaway hull designs was actually discussed during development. It was left open so groups can do it whichever way they like, without being forced into ok, you can't do it this way or making a house rule.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:36 am

The "each breakaway section has its own hardpoints/firmpoints" model allows much more abuse.

Consider a 10 dT ship broken into 10 sections of 10 dT each; each section would have a single firmpoint, so the combined ship would have 10 firmpoints. With a missile rack on each firmpoints the ship could launch 10 missiles per round, instead of 3 as a turret would allow.

Consider a 105 dT ship broken into 3 sections of 35 dT. Each section has two firmpoints, so can mount a barbette. The combined ship can therefore mount 3 missile barbettes, launching 15 missiles.

Or if we really want to abuse the system, take a 100 dT ship, break it into 100 section of 1 dT each. Use the drone (Virtual Crew) rule to remove the bridges. Each section has a firmpoint so the combined ship has 100 firmpoints and can launch 100 missiles.

I will stick with the "the combined ship has hardpoints" model.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:17 pm

I've already considered that possibility, and if you followed the rules as given, it's viable.

My position is that a hundred and ten tonne ship could have a hard point and a firmpoint, or you can trade in that hardpoint for another three firmpoints, not that it would appear worth it.

The disadvantage is, firmpoints are restricted to a maximum range of close, so unless you're planning to go real close and personal, stuffing them with missiles could be a waste of time.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:50 pm

Condottiere wrote: My position is that a hundred and ten tonne ship could have a hard point and a firmpoint, or you can trade in that hardpoint for another three firmpoints, not that it would appear worth it.
That is not RAW, a craft can have either hardpoints or firmpoints, and they are not convertible.
Condottiere wrote: The disadvantage is, firmpoints are restricted to a maximum range of close, so unless you're planning to go real close and personal, stuffing them with missiles could be a waste of time.
Small craft use the same missiles as ships, the smaller firmpoint mounts only store fewer of them. Reasonably the missiles work the same way, so can be launched at Distant range.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:31 pm

You'd think that, but there are no exceptions or caveats made; High Guard seems exceptionally specific in this.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:38 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:31 pm
You'd think that, but there are no exceptions or caveats made; High Guard seems exceptionally specific in this.
The general understanding during beta was that the missiles were the same, but the launchers were not. You will notice that missile racks have no range, so modifying the range of missile racks have no effect.
Nerhesi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:01 pm
Condottiere wrote:If they're using the same sized missiles, then their performance should be the same.
Performance is the same. The size of the barbette/turret is not. Hence - less missiles stored.
Just to be clear: The same performance means not having decreased range.
Nerhesi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:24 pm
Since unlike direct-fire weapons, they dont have decreased range.. so how are they decreased? Because the understanding is that they're obviously "Smaller" than the real hardpoint equivalent.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:19 pm

Have we got official errata to cover this?

Because without that, it's a house rule.

As can be noted, I'm aware of the logical answer, but stymied by the written word.

The only way missile ammunition capacity can be explained is by quantum physics.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Nobby-W » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:01 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:05 pm
The latest in flexible ships is the Lego ship system. It is a breakaway hull system where breakaway sections can be combined like Lego pieces into the desired ship. The ship can later be expanded by adding more sections.
[ . . . ]
Have you ever played Kerbal Space Program?
AnotherDilbert
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:54 pm

Nobby-W wrote: Have you ever played Kerbal Space Program?
No, I haven't even heard of it.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:54 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:05 pm
The latest in flexible ships is the Lego ship system. It is a breakaway hull system where breakaway sections can be combined like Lego pieces into the desired ship. The ship can later be expanded by adding more sections.

A basic ship might be a command section in the front with a bridge and a few staterooms, a payload section in the middle, and a drive section in the rear. If we want to increase performance we can add another drive section.

Basic Sections include:
Command Section: 30 dT, 10 dT bridge, Computer m10/bis, Sensors, 3 staterooms, MCr 8.7
Command Section: 40 dT, 20 dT bridge, Computer m10/bis, Sensors, 3 staterooms, MCr 9.9
Basic Drive: 20 dT, 200 dT thrust, Jump-1 for 200 dT, MCr 15.7
Extra Drive: 10 dT, 100 dT thrust, Jump-1 for 100 dT, MCr 5.6
Thrust: 5 dT, 200 dT thrust, MCr 5

HabCargo: 50 dT, 4 staterooms, airlock, 24 dT cargo, MCr 7
Habitation: 50 dT, 9 staterooms, lounge (library), airlock, MCr 12.8
Habitation: 40 dT, 7 staterooms, lounge, airlock, MCr 7.9
Cargo: 50 dT, 47 dT cargo, 3 modules 10 dT (fuel/cargo), MCr 4.4
Cargo: 40 dT, 37 dT cargo, 3 modules 10 dT (fuel/cargo), MCr 3.7

Utility Craft: 5 dT, streamlined, 3G, cockpit, 2 dT cargo with collapsible tanks and foldable benches, MCr 0.9



A simple ship might be:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7), Cargo Section (50 dT, MCr 4.4), and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 15.7) for a total of 100 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 28.8.

If we want higher performance we can switch to:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7), Cargo Section (40 dT, MCr 3.7), Extra Drive Section (10 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 5.6), and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 15.7) for a total of 100 dT, J-3 and 3G, MCr 33.7.

If we want more payload we can insert more payload:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7),
Habitation (50 dT, MCr 12.8 ),
Cargo Section (50 dT, MCr 4.4),
Cargo Section (50 dT, MCr 4.4),
and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 15.7),
for a total of 200 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 46.

Again we can easily upgrade performance:
Command Section (30 dT, MCr 8.7),
Habitation (50 dT, MCr 12.8 ),
Cargo Section (40 dT, MCr 3.7),
Cargo Section (40 dT, MCr 3.7),
Extra Drive Section (10 dT, J-½, ½G, MCr 5.6),
Extra Drive Section (10 dT, J-½, ½G, MCr 5.6),
and Basic Drive Section (20 dT, J-1, 1G, MCr 15.7),
for a total of 200 dT, J-2, 2G, MCr 55.8.



All sections have Breakaway connectors, cockpits, basic sensors, and m/5 computers. Command and habitation sections has 1G and 4 weeks endurance and can be used as lifeboats. Cargo sections has batteries that can only power life-support for a short time. Command and Extra Drive sections have space set aside for turrets.

The complete ships are not very cheap or efficient, but they are very flexible. You can start with a small ship and make it bigger as you make more money or needs change.
Where can I buy these lego ships for Traveller? Are they Available at Toys R Us? I know they have them for Star Wars, but I wasn't aware there were Lego Traveller kits.
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:12 pm

Image
Condottiere
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Re: The Lego Ship System

Postby Condottiere » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:15 am


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