MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

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Condottiere
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:15 pm

I think there're varying standards, but each group is widely known and compatible.

Probably one reason they use magnetic locks, so you don't have to make mechanical clamps fit.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:22 pm

Morning PDT,

In the post time stamped Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:48 am the suggestion was made that 0.5 d-tons could hold two individuals. I've been trying, among other items, to determine how many individuals fit in a standard 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 m or 0.5 d-ton deck plan square.

I also went back to CT Snapshot that is included in FFE 005 Games 1-6+ 1st ed 1st printing 2001. There are unfortunately no page numbers so here is the information:

"Introduction/Scale/Distance: The map uses a square grid --- each square on such a map measures one-half inch by one-half inch, just large enough to hold one die-cut counter. The width of one square equals a distance of 1.5 meters.

Other grid sizes are possible, and even desirable. Maps on a larger grids may be made up, and ship plans printed on smaller grids are given in Traveller supplements such as the Kinunir and the Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. When different sized grids are used, adjustments must be made in counter sizes."

Looking through CRB 2e, HG 2e, and CT Snapshot my impression is that one 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 m/0.5 d-ton square can be occupied by one individual.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:34 pm

Depends on actual mass, and spacesuit.

Half tonne includes two sets of doors and pumps.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Hello Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:34 pm
Depends on actual mass, and spacesuit.

Half tonne includes two sets of doors and pumps.
Thank you for mentioning the vacc suit/spacesuit which I overlooked until after posting. However, as far as I can determine from the various personal combat rules in MgT HG 2e and CRB 2e one individual represented by a die-cut counter occupies one square that has the dimension of 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 with or without a vacc suit/spacesuit.

Following the MgT HG 2e airlock guidelines the standard airlock is 2 d-tons which includes two doors and the pumps allowing two vacc suited personnel to ingress/egress from the ship's interior to exterior after a one minute cycle time. Based on the information a 0.5 d-ton airlock appears to be a tight fit allowing one vacc suited individual to ingress/egress the ship in one minute. Cramming two individuals into the same 0.5 d-ton airlock would be possible but probably not on a routine basis.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby phavoc » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:45 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:35 pm
Hello Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:34 pm
Depends on actual mass, and spacesuit.

Half tonne includes two sets of doors and pumps.
Thank you for mentioning the vacc suit/spacesuit which I overlooked until after posting. However, as far as I can determine from the various personal combat rules in MgT HG 2e and CRB 2e one individual represented by a die-cut counter occupies one square that has the dimension of 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 with or without a vacc suit/spacesuit.

Following the MgT HG 2e airlock guidelines the standard airlock is 2 d-tons which includes two doors and the pumps allowing two vacc suited personnel to ingress/egress from the ship's interior to exterior after a one minute cycle time. Based on the information a 0.5 d-ton airlock appears to be a tight fit allowing one vacc suited individual to ingress/egress the ship in one minute. Cramming two individuals into the same 0.5 d-ton airlock would be possible but probably not on a routine basis.
Keep in mind that those rules are supposed to be represent combat, thus it makes sense you don't want to have more than 1 person occupying a single square - it tends to cause higher casualities from weapons fire.

And when you are cycling through a lock, close proximity isn't an issue. So those two rules can logicaly co-exist.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:01 pm

Hello phavoc,
phavoc wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:45 pm
snrdg121408 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:35 pm
Hello Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:34 pm
Depends on actual mass, and spacesuit.

Half tonne includes two sets of doors and pumps.
Thank you for mentioning the vacc suit/spacesuit which I overlooked until after posting. However, as far as I can determine from the various personal combat rules in MgT HG 2e and CRB 2e one individual represented by a die-cut counter occupies one square that has the dimension of 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 with or without a vacc suit/spacesuit.

Following the MgT HG 2e airlock guidelines the standard airlock is 2 d-tons which includes two doors and the pumps allowing two vacc suited personnel to ingress/egress from the ship's interior to exterior after a one minute cycle time. Based on the information a 0.5 d-ton airlock appears to be a tight fit allowing one vacc suited individual to ingress/egress the ship in one minute. Cramming two individuals into the same 0.5 d-ton airlock would be possible but probably not on a routine basis.
Keep in mind that those rules are supposed to be represent combat, thus it makes sense you don't want to have more than 1 person occupying a single square - it tends to cause higher casualities from weapons fire.

And when you are cycling through a lock, close proximity isn't an issue. So those two rules can logicaly co-exist.
Cramming two individuals in vacc suits in a 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 m square only makes sense to me in an emergency not as a normal practice. Then again my point of reference is based on real world experience that has been indicated not be applicable to the craft of any TU.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby phavoc » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:20 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:01 pm
Cramming two individuals in vacc suits in a 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 m square only makes sense to me in an emergency not as a normal practice. Then again my point of reference is based on real world experience that has been indicated not be applicable to the craft of any TU.
Standard vac suits aren't terribly bulky, and they certainly are not as bulky as space suits of today. You could fit two people in that space reasonably comfortably for the few minutes they will be there.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:52 pm

Two and a half feet squared.

You could squeeze in four people.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:49 pm

Afternoon Condottiere and phavoc,

I've been doing some digging about the space shuttle's airlock and have discovered that as usual I am half baked. OF course the web gremlins were messing with my efforts before phavoc's and Condottiere's posts. Thank you both for making them decide to go elsewhere.

From the following site: https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/re ... rlock.html

"The airlock is normally located inside the middeck of the spacecraft's pressurized crew cabin. It has an inside diameter of 63 inches, is 83 inches long and has two 40-inch- diameter D-shaped openings that are 36 inches across. It also has two pressure-sealing hatches and a complement of airlock support systems. The airlock's volume is 150 cubic feet.

The airlock is sized to accommodate two fully suited flight crew members simultaneously. Support functions include airlock depressurization and repressurization, extravehicular activity equipment recharge, liquid-cooled garment water cooling, EVA equipment checkout, donning and communications. The EVA gear, checkout panel and recharge stations are located on the internal walls of the airlock.

The airlock hatches are mounted on the airlock. The inner hatch is mounted on the exterior of the airlock (orbiter crew cabin middeck side) and opens into the middeck. The inner hatch isolates the airlock from the orbiter crew cabin. The outer hatch is mounted inside the airlock and opens into the airlock. The outer hatch isolates the airlock from the unpressurized payload bay when closed and permits the EVA crew members to exit from the airlock to the payload bay when open. "

Using my handy dandy Texas Instruments TI-85 conversion feature 150 ft^3 = 4.2475 m^3 that fits 2 personnel in today's spacesuits and one person helping them suit-up. Based on this information under normal conditions a MgT, or TU in general, has the ability to fit in a 14/13.5 m^3 space probably 6 crew in vacc suits with three assisting during the suit-up.

In short I stand corrected.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby phavoc » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:56 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:49 pm
Afternoon Condottiere and phavoc,

I've been doing some digging about the space shuttle's airlock and have discovered that as usual I am half baked. OF course the web gremlins were messing with my efforts before phavoc's and Condottiere's posts. Thank you both for making them decide to go elsewhere.

From the following site: https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/re ... rlock.html

"The airlock is normally located inside the middeck of the spacecraft's pressurized crew cabin. It has an inside diameter of 63 inches, is 83 inches long and has two 40-inch- diameter D-shaped openings that are 36 inches across. It also has two pressure-sealing hatches and a complement of airlock support systems. The airlock's volume is 150 cubic feet.

The airlock is sized to accommodate two fully suited flight crew members simultaneously. Support functions include airlock depressurization and repressurization, extravehicular activity equipment recharge, liquid-cooled garment water cooling, EVA equipment checkout, donning and communications. The EVA gear, checkout panel and recharge stations are located on the internal walls of the airlock.

The airlock hatches are mounted on the airlock. The inner hatch is mounted on the exterior of the airlock (orbiter crew cabin middeck side) and opens into the middeck. The inner hatch isolates the airlock from the orbiter crew cabin. The outer hatch is mounted inside the airlock and opens into the airlock. The outer hatch isolates the airlock from the unpressurized payload bay when closed and permits the EVA crew members to exit from the airlock to the payload bay when open. "

Using my handy dandy Texas Instruments TI-85 conversion feature 150 ft^3 = 4.2475 m^3 that fits 2 personnel in today's spacesuits and one person helping them suit-up. Based on this information under normal conditions a MgT, or TU in general, has the ability to fit in a 14/13.5 m^3 space probably 6 crew in vacc suits with three assisting during the suit-up.

In short I stand corrected.
Don't forget the space shuttle airlock is going to be used in zero-G. That makes all three dimensions usable. A standard ship airlock is typically going to be operated in a gravity-based environment. That does change things somewhat. :)

But as a former squid you must realize you can pack people into very small spaces and still get things done!
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:40 pm

Morning PDT phavoc,
phavoc wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:56 pm
snrdg121408 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:49 pm
Afternoon Condottiere and phavoc,

I've been doing some digging about the space shuttle's airlock and have discovered that as usual I am half baked. OF course the web gremlins were messing with my efforts before phavoc's and Condottiere's posts. Thank you both for making them decide to go elsewhere.

From the following site: https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/re ... rlock.html

"The airlock is normally located inside the middeck of the spacecraft's pressurized crew cabin. It has an inside diameter of 63 inches, is 83 inches long and has two 40-inch- diameter D-shaped openings that are 36 inches across. It also has two pressure-sealing hatches and a complement of airlock support systems. The airlock's volume is 150 cubic feet.

The airlock is sized to accommodate two fully suited flight crew members simultaneously. Support functions include airlock depressurization and repressurization, extravehicular activity equipment recharge, liquid-cooled garment water cooling, EVA equipment checkout, donning and communications. The EVA gear, checkout panel and recharge stations are located on the internal walls of the airlock.

The airlock hatches are mounted on the airlock. The inner hatch is mounted on the exterior of the airlock (orbiter crew cabin middeck side) and opens into the middeck. The inner hatch isolates the airlock from the orbiter crew cabin. The outer hatch is mounted inside the airlock and opens into the airlock. The outer hatch isolates the airlock from the unpressurized payload bay when closed and permits the EVA crew members to exit from the airlock to the payload bay when open. "

Using my handy dandy Texas Instruments TI-85 conversion feature 150 ft^3 = 4.2475 m^3 that fits 2 personnel in today's spacesuits and one person helping them suit-up. Based on this information under normal conditions a MgT, or TU in general, has the ability to fit in a 14/13.5 m^3 space probably 6 crew in vacc suits with three assisting during the suit-up.

In short I stand corrected.
Don't forget the space shuttle airlock is going to be used in zero-G. That makes all three dimensions usable. A standard ship airlock is typically going to be operated in a gravity-based environment. That does change things somewhat. :)

But as a former squid you must realize you can pack people into very small spaces and still get things done!
Okay, instead of nine bodies the airlock in gravity could fit four to six. Half the personnel assisting the ones going out to do the EVA suit-up and then leaving the airlock.

As a retired submarine sailor fitting about 100 odd people in a sewer pipe with all the items needed to function in about 200 feet of space I do know about living in a tight space.

Now the tender I served on by submarine standards was really spacious, however they were still packed by many peoples standards.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:40 pm

I'd separate that between wardrobe and portal.

You can have a sally port, just large enough for one guy in a spacesuit to get through.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:51 am

A wet Evening PDT Condorriere,
Condottiere wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:40 pm
I'd separate that between wardrobe and portal.

You can have a sally port, just large enough for one guy in a spacesuit to get through.
If I am understanding the suggestion is that the 0.5 d-ton or 7 m^3 airlock about 4.3 m^3 would be allocated to donning and doffing the spacesuits/vacc suits and the remainder would be the airlock.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:05 am

Mongoose is vague, so let me be equally non committal.

We need to know how much space each type and model of space suit or set of protective clothing take up, before we can stuff a telephone booth.

The main airlock is likely a composite of both a portal, plus storage and dress up area, with maybe a third set of doors closing off the wardrobe; how much area is devoted to each isn't really addressed, outside that the actual egress appears to require two tonnes of volume, whereas we know that all we need to know is how much volume the pumps and door(s) require, and we increase or decrease that two tonnes.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby phavoc » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:26 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:05 am
Mongoose is vague, so let me be equally non committal.

We need to know how much space each type and model of space suit or set of protective clothing take up, before we can stuff a telephone booth.

The main airlock is likely a composite of both a portal, plus storage and dress up area, with maybe a third set of doors closing off the wardrobe; how much area is devoted to each isn't really addressed, outside that the actual egress appears to require two tonnes of volume, whereas we know that all we need to know is how much volume the pumps and door(s) require, and we increase or decrease that two tonnes.
I've always assumed that suits would be stored immediately outside the airlock. While one can move inside the lock to get ready, I think from a safety perspective you'd want to keep both the inner and outer doors closed at all time unless being in immediate use.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:16 pm

Morning PDT Condittiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:05 am
Mongoose is vague, so let me be equally non committal.

We need to know how much space each type and model of space suit or set of protective clothing take up, before we can stuff a telephone booth.

The main airlock is likely a composite of both a portal, plus storage and dress up area, with maybe a third set of doors closing off the wardrobe; how much area is devoted to each isn't really addressed, outside that the actual egress appears to require two tonnes of volume, whereas we know that all we need to know is how much volume the pumps and door(s) require, and we increase or decrease that two tonnes.
I do agree that the MgT airlock guidelines are vague about the intricate details, but I do not agree that "we know how much volume the pumps and inner and outer doors require" based on the following

MgT HG 2e PDF p. 44
"Additional Airlock
Additional airlocks of any size may be added to a ship. It typically takes a minute for an airlock to fully cycle.

Airlocks consume a minimum of 2 tons and cost MCr0.1 per ton. Larger airlocks can be used for cargo bays."

Looking at the designs in HG 2e I think that 32 or 33 of the 53 identify the freebie airlocks clearly enough that they appear to consume 1, 1.5, 2, and possibly 3 d-tons of space.

I can see the exterior and interior airlock doors I'm only sure that they appear to be about 1.5 m wide. The other dimension or dimensions are not indicated.

So the freebie airlocks appear to have a minimum of 1 d-ton at no space and no MCr cost, while additional airlocks have a minimum requirement of 2 d-tons at a cost of MCr0.1.

In HG 2e the standard additional airlock is 2 d-tons and normally cycles 2 vacc suited personnel through in 1 minute,I guessing that the freebie ones cycle time is the same, and CRB 2e an average airlock cycles 3 vacc suited personnel in 10 seconds.

At this point I know that a MgT HG 2e airlock accommodates two vacc suited personnel and that there is a minimum volume and MCr cost for add-on airlocks beyond the 1 per 100 d-tons of hull volume.

Thank you for the help.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:31 pm

Hello phavoc,
phavoc wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:26 pm
Condottiere wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:05 am
Mongoose is vague, so let me be equally non committal.

We need to know how much space each type and model of space suit or set of protective clothing take up, before we can stuff a telephone booth.

The main airlock is likely a composite of both a portal, plus storage and dress up area, with maybe a third set of doors closing off the wardrobe; how much area is devoted to each isn't really addressed, outside that the actual egress appears to require two tonnes of volume, whereas we know that all we need to know is how much volume the pumps and door(s) require, and we increase or decrease that two tonnes.
I've always assumed that suits would be stored immediately outside the airlock. While one can move inside the lock to get ready, I think from a safety perspective you'd want to keep both the inner and outer doors closed at all time unless being in immediate use.
I did find the for the ISS the EVA airlock has two separate sections at this site https://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/ISSRG/pdfs/quest.pdf.

I'm guessing the shuttle has the same features and I think the Condottiere indicated that there are two separate spaces which the deck plans showing less than 2 d-tons is probably indicating.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:52 am

You can have suit lockers, either inside the airlock, or just inside the spaceship proper, and use the corridor as the changing room.

However, it requires our imagination to come up and cost as well as assign volume to these options.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:47 pm

Morning PDT Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:52 am
You can have suit lockers, either inside the airlock, or just inside the spaceship proper, and use the corridor as the changing room.

However, it requires our imagination to come up and cost as well as assign volume to these options.

1. The standard two d-ton airlock, like staterooms, bridge, engineering spaces, etc. volume includes the pumps, storage, and maintenance area.

2. Ship's Lockers only require space and have no MCr. The material stored inside does have a MCr cost that is not included in the hull's purchase price. If one can use the option of armored bulkheads then the hull's space and MCr cost would be altered to accommodate the installation of the armor.
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Re: MgT Airlocks CRB 2e p. 143 versus HG 2e p. 22

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:38 pm

Considering the cost of spaceships, costs would be subsumed.

Might be a different issue if the spaceship is being remodelled.

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