Star System Naval Reserve

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FallingPhoenix
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Star System Naval Reserve

Postby FallingPhoenix » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:54 am

To follow up the Frontier Variants booklet, I'm working on a Naval Reserve, where a star system that wants some naval ships for cheap takes all the local Free/Far Traders and makes the majority of the ship modular, and then provides modules when it needs extra naval power. They also may use 'bolt-on' armor, for some extra protection, though it does make the bridge too small.

Anyway, what sorts of ships might be most likely in such a naval reserve. It's looking like there's room for a heavy hitter with one or two bay weapons, a carrier, maybe, a troop transport... What else do you think might be in such a reserve, or what would you like to see deckplans and stats for?
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Condottiere
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Condottiere » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:05 am

Naval reserve vessels are more to relieve actual warships from doing necessary chores, like mine sweeping, patrolling and boarding.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:53 am

Unless you are running a small ship universe, I don't think the navy is all that interested in Free Traders, but perhaps that is only because of a lack of imagination.

They could probably use as many Sub Liners as they could find, just to ferry people around.

Perhaps Far Traders could be used to emplace mines and recon networks?

If your navy only operates within a single subsector J-2 might be enough, otherwise J-3 or even J-4 would be highly preferable even for logistics.

Any ship without sensors, armour, and defences should probably not be used in any combat role.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby phavoc » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:36 pm

FallingPhoenix wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:54 am
To follow up the Frontier Variants booklet, I'm working on a Naval Reserve, where a star system that wants some naval ships for cheap takes all the local Free/Far Traders and makes the majority of the ship modular, and then provides modules when it needs extra naval power. They also may use 'bolt-on' armor, for some extra protection, though it does make the bridge too small.

Anyway, what sorts of ships might be most likely in such a naval reserve. It's looking like there's room for a heavy hitter with one or two bay weapons, a carrier, maybe, a troop transport... What else do you think might be in such a reserve, or what would you like to see deckplans and stats for?
Remember that a planet's rule only goes out to 100D. So a single system could have multiple entities. And most systems have no need to project power beyond their own. I would expect that those planets who are large enough and rich enough, and who have a trading presence within their own system (as they economically should), they would have patrol vessels out there to protect merchants and transports. However those ships would be better off ditching a jump drive and the significant fuel cost and investing in a higher maneuver drive. This is where light/scout carriers would go great for patrols - they could go to an area and deploy smaller craft and significantly increase their scouting and detection range by deploying cheaper smallcraft.

While systems are allowed under Imperial law to engage in warfare with one another, they aren't allowed to build multi-system empires. Plus they cannot affect trade or non-combatants, so it's a way for them to blow off steam without causing widespread disruption.

How do you see your universe working as far as inter-system warfare?
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby FallingPhoenix » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:11 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:53 am
Unless you are running a small ship universe, I don't think the navy is all that interested in Free Traders, but perhaps that is only because of a lack of imagination.
I was thinking these would mostly be along the lines of "National Guard" sort of thing, where a system might want an immediately or almost immediately available defense force (or maybe an 'attack the neighbors' force, to 'blow off steam') using only local resources. Frontier areas, like the Trojan Reach, outside the Imperium, might use this idea, too. I didn't really see the Imperial Navy using this sort of idea too much.
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:53 am
They could probably use as many Sub Liners as they could find, just to ferry people around.

Perhaps Far Traders could be used to emplace mines and recon networks?
Then again, this idea's got me thinking. Could it be cost effective to have a bunch of these modified traders jump with a fleet, but scatter themselves around system as a 'sensor net' for the jumping in fleet?

Or, could a squadron of up-armored traders be used along the lines of a squadron of fighters on a larger scale? Hmmm... I may have to look at some costs and the 'combined fire' rules, again.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:46 pm

FallingPhoenix wrote: I was thinking these would mostly be along the lines of "National Guard" sort of thing,
I agree that this is a reasonable idea.

FallingPhoenix wrote: Then again, this idea's got me thinking. Could it be cost effective to have a bunch of these modified traders jump with a fleet, but scatter themselves around system as a 'sensor net' for the jumping in fleet?
What does your navy look like? You probably do not want to slow down your combat fleets. J-1 Traders are very slow.

FallingPhoenix wrote: Or, could a squadron of up-armored traders be used along the lines of a squadron of fighters on a larger scale? Hmmm... I may have to look at some costs and the 'combined fire' rules, again.
You might fill the cargo hold of Free Traders and Subbies with torpedo bays, a squadron of those, perhaps with a small warship for improved sensors, could be a nasty surprise for a small enemy squadron or cruiser.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:51 am

Free traders are like trawlers.

The Chinese have organized a maritime militia with reinforced hulls and provisions for adding armaments,their equivalent of Russia's green army men, except in blue uniforms. It's part of their strategy in dominating maritime areas that they claim, without using actual warships, making any confrontation with civilian authorities usually end in their favour, though over the horizon they do have at least a heavily armed large coast guard ready to provide some muscle.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby steve98052 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:15 am

I remembered the term for a large fighting ship meant for system defense: "monitor". They would likely be a common part of system naval defenses. They might be exactly the same ship classes as battle riders, except for mission -- a monitor stays in a system while a battle rider typically travels in a fleet aboard a jump carrier.

And of course a small fighting non-starship is a system defense boat, and a fighting small craft is a fighter.

Given the difference in missions, it's likely that monitors and battle riders would not share designs. The key design constraint on a battle rider would be maximum firepower per dton of carrier capacity required to deliver it to a war zone. But the constraint for a monitor would be to maximize firepower per MCr of budget, which might make planetoid hulls common for monitors.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:24 am

Battle riders are monitors with an Uber ride.

It's not set in stone, though since terminology tends to have a historical naval base, monitors would tend to be built around a spinal mount.

The terms gunboat and gunship has been tossed around, though system defence boat was usually used on anything less than a thousand tonnes.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:47 pm

I tend to specifically use battleriders as system defence monitors, in order to have a reserve of battleriders to replace losses.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby steve98052 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:28 pm

I think the type of monitor would depend on whose budget pays for the ship. If the Imperial Navy is paying for it, it's probably going to be built as a battle rider with a default peacetime assignment as system defense.

If a planetary navy pays for construction, it's probably going to be designed solely for system defense, with no regard for docking to a jump carrier -- or possibly even designed to be inconvenient to transport out of the system so that it's not borrowed by the Imperium for a mission somewhere else, at the expense of the system's own defense.

An in-between navy, such as a subsector navy, might do it either way, depending on the relationship between the local nobles and the higher nobility. A subsector duke who feels like the Imperial Navy might borrow battle riders for emergencies elsewhere, to the detriment of local defense needs, might choose to build a lot of lumpy planetoid monitors even if it reduces intra-subsector flexibility. But a subsector duke with an eye for larger Imperial needs would probably build battle riders and carriers, keeping them ready to carry the fight to the enemy or in the subsector, depending on circumstances.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:55 pm

Considering current Imperium doctrine, the Navy could loan out it's battle riders to various planetary navies, crewed by the locals, but can federalize them with their crews, when they're ready to identify a schwerpunkt and are ready to commit their reserves.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:07 pm

Empty weapon bays can carry cargo at their full capacity.
The weaponry in bays is easily removed and replaced by other bay weaponry as the need arises.
Empty weapons bays may be put to a variety of uses, such as holding small craft
(air/rafts, ATVs, fighters, pinnaces, etc), or storing cargo.
So build some bulk haulers for trade lane use, upon conscription they are refitted quickly with weapons in those bays.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Jak Nazryth » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:24 pm

Some poor systems would probably supplement their forces by the purchase of decommissioned ships from larger nations/empires.
Then you can use the used ship trait chart in mass. :)
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Condottiere » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:44 pm

I don't think that weapon bay dimensions were ever spelled out.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby FallingPhoenix » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:30 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:44 pm
I don't think that weapon bay dimensions were ever spelled out.
Wouldn't it go straight from their size in dTons?
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:31 pm

I'd define a bay as a recess in the hull, packed with weapon systems.

The question is how far recessed, and packed how.

Not all weapon systems are going to be the exact same size, nor the same dimensions, and what's the shape of the bay going to be, rectangular, squarish, circular or oval?

The mass driver is definitely a smaller version of the railgun spinal mount, the ion and tachyon cannons are stated to be a single weapon system, the rest are multiples, and with the fusion gun, it's ambiguous.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:10 pm

Bay Weapons: Weapons may be mounted in bays, large areas near the skin of the ship's hull. Bays are available in 100-ton and 50-ton sizes (the size indicates the tonnage required) and must be installed during construction. The weaponry in bays is easily removed and replaced by other bay weaponry as the need arises.
HG'80, p30.

Bays are, just like turrets, standardised modules and can easily be replaced, or left empty for cargo or hangar space.
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby Jame Rowe » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:46 am

I figure that any planet with a port of A, B or even C with TL of 10+ and population digit of at least 5 will be able to build system defense of some sort. IMTU systems are more populous, and B and C ports can build larger hulls than regular Traveller permits (it makes my game more interesting, to me).
Condottiere wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:55 pm
Considering current Imperium doctrine, the Navy could loan out it's battle riders to various planetary navies, crewed by the locals, but can federalize them with their crews, when they're ready to identify a schwerpunkt and are ready to commit their reserves.
What is a schwerpunkt?
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Re: Star System Naval Reserve

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:36 am

Schwerpunkt, literally "heavy point" meaning centre of gravity.
Schwerpunkt

The Germans referred to a Schwerpunkt (focal point) and to a Schwerpunktprinzip (concentration principle) in the planning of operations, known as Schwerpunktbildung. The Schwerpunkt was the centre of gravity, point of main effort, where a decisive result was to be achieved. Military force was concentrated at the Schwerpunkt, regardless of the sacrifices it made necessary elsewhere. By local success at the Schwerpunkt, a small force could achieve a breakthrough and gain advantages by fighting in the enemy rear. Guderian summarised this as "Klotzen, nicht kleckern!" ("Kick, don't spatter them!").

To break through, armoured forces would attack an opposing defensive line frontally, supported by motorised infantry, artillery fire and aerial bombardment, to create a breach. Tanks and other motorised units could break out of the fortified zone without the encumbrance of slow-moving infantry moving on foot. Air forces tried to gain air superiority by attacking opposing aircraft on the ground, bombing airfields and communications and seeking tactically advantageous positions from which to destroy them in the air. Schwerpunktbildung enabled the attacker to win numerical superiority at the point of main effort, which in turn gave the attacker tactical and operational superiority, even though the attacker may be numerically and strategically inferior in general.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrie ... operations

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