Vehicle damage clarification

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ochd
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Vehicle damage clarification

Postby ochd » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:23 pm

Hi,

Can I check I am interpreting the vehicle combat rules (as written) correctly, in that the following scenarios are correct:

- an average unarmed attacked (1D dmg) may well render a standard g/bike (armour 4, hull 2) inoperable and beyond repair (so, 6 dmg would reduce hull to 0).
- a couple of shots from a slug thrower will likewise probably render a standard air/raft or ground car inoperable and beyond repair.

I'm using the standard vehicle specs as given in the core rulebook, rather than the VHB.

My hopes for an exciting vehicle chase and shootout in my last session were dashed when the pursuers' vehicles were rendered useless in the first two rounds.

Thanks,

Dan.
M Harold Page
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby M Harold Page » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:32 pm

Yes I noticed this when low-tech musketeers shot up the players' truck. It made sense that they should render it inoperable - a very comedic moment - but hard to imagine it being irreparable.
Infojunky
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Infojunky » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Yes, that is the Case...

Believe me Arguments were had over light vehicles in 2ndEd....
Evyn
bluekieran
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby bluekieran » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:32 pm

How are people house-ruling this?
Infojunky
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Infojunky » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:41 pm

bluekieran wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:32 pm
How are people house-ruling this?
Honestly, still using Vehicles 5-6, and the 1st edition rules.

Though for small vehicles one could add hits until it feels right.
Evyn
wbnc
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby wbnc » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 am

ochd wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:23 pm
Hi,

Can I check I am interpreting the vehicle combat rules (as written) correctly, in that the following scenarios are correct:

- an average unarmed attacked (1D dmg) may well render a standard g/bike (armour 4, hull 2) inoperable and beyond repair (so, 6 dmg would reduce hull to 0).
- a couple of shots from a slug thrower will likewise probably render a standard air/raft or ground car inoperable and beyond repair.

I'm using the standard vehicle specs as given in the core rulebook, rather than the VHB.

My hopes for an exciting vehicle chase and shootout in my last session were dashed when the pursuers' vehicles were rendered useless in the first two rounds.

Thanks,

Dan.

A single bullet from an AK-47 can take down an Old Huey helicopter..my .38 can wreck the average street bike.

Most of the time incoming fire hits sheet metal and not much else. In game terms, the attack was not successful. the "damage" is purely cosmetic.
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Infojunky » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:17 am

wbnc wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 am


A single bullet from an AK-47 can take down an Old Huey helicopter..my .38 can wreck the average street bike.

Most of the time incoming fire hits sheet metal and not much else. In game terms, the attack was not successful. the "damage" is purely cosmetic.
That is one of the strengths of Vehicles 5-6 under 1stEd. That and the Base armor Value, so there was a inherent damage threshold.
Evyn
steve98052
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby steve98052 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:42 am

bluekieran wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:32 pm
How are people house-ruling this?
Personally, I use a lot of handwaving, and don't bother with looking up rules. If I wanted to get simulationist, I'd use GURPS. But I'm more a story game kind of person now.
wbnc wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 am
A single bullet from an AK-47 can take down an Old Huey helicopter..my .38 can wreck the average street bike.

Most of the time incoming fire hits sheet metal and not much else. In game terms, the attack was not successful. the "damage" is purely cosmetic.
Exactly. Some kinds of hits add up -- a single hit to a fuel tank will start a slow leak that eventually disable a vehicle through fuel loss, but a bunch of fuel tank hits will drain it quickly. Some hits disable a vehicle quickly, such as a hit to a fuel line or a driver wound. Some impair a vehicle in a specific way without fully disabling it, such as flattening tires, disabling brakes, obscuring view through windows, etc. Those don't play well with most game rules.
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby wbnc » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:32 pm

steve98052 wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:42 am
bluekieran wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:32 pm
How are people house-ruling this?
Personally, I use a lot of handwaving, and don't bother with looking up rules. If I wanted to get simulationist, I'd use GURPS. But I'm more a story game kind of person now.
wbnc wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 am
A single bullet from an AK-47 can take down an Old Huey helicopter..my .38 can wreck the average street bike.

Most of the time incoming fire hits sheet metal and not much else. In game terms, the attack was not successful. the "damage" is purely cosmetic.
Exactly. Some kinds of hits add up -- a single hit to a fuel tank will start a slow leak that eventually disable a vehicle through fuel loss, but a bunch of fuel tank hits will drain it quickly. Some hits disable a vehicle quickly, such as a hit to a fuel line or a driver wound. Some impair a vehicle in a specific way without fully disabling it, such as flattening tires, disabling brakes, obscuring view through windows, etc. Those don't play well with most game rules.
Os vehicles are big metal boxesful of totally unimportant( to the operation of the vehicle) things, with a few interesting bits located in various places. mosy of te time a larger vehicle has more places to shoot full of holes without actually disabling the vehicle.

it breaks down into
Power
Drive
Suspension
Controls
Structure
On a Vespa scooter, it's hard to hit anything without it being both important and fragile.A single .22 Long rifle hitting anywhere is likely to break something. On a MACK truck ,there is more "empty" space where even a .50 caliber round can pass through without breaking an important bit.

the important bits are larger and more robust in general. It takes a bigger dose of kinetic energy to crack the block of a diesel engine in a truck than it does to break the block of a vespa scooter. But some of those bits are the same a hit to the radiator of a Mack Truck will put it out of action in a matter of minutes,

ON top of that non combat vehicles are not designed to take any sort of damage to the working parts at all. they are made of the cheapest and lightest materials the engineers could make work, and have little or no tolerance for damage.
Condottiere
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:30 am

Image

Obligatory picture.
msprange
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby msprange » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:09 am

We did stats for that under the original VHB :)

http://blog.mongoosepublishing.co.uk/?p=759

Bonus points for someone to update it to the new edition!
Matthew Sprange

Mongoose Publishing
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com
ZeroCochrane2099
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby ZeroCochrane2099 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 pm

I noticed the same problem with 2nd edition vehicles: They are far too squishy. An unarmed Traveller can use his fist to destroy a grav cycle or ground car or air raft more easily than he can beat up another Traveller. Similarly, some of the spacecraft are a bit squishy, what with having Armour 0, they can be easily damaged by character-scale weapons, though it takes longer to destroy them because of the x10 damage scale factor.

This is the simplest best solution that I could come up with:

Add +6 Armour and +6 Hull to all vehicles, and +1 Armour and +1 Hull to all spacecraft (that's +10 each on the character scale).

It's easy to remember, and if you do this for every vehicle and ship stat block, it keeps their comparative defenses relatively balanced.
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Infojunky » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:44 pm

ZeroCochrane2099 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 pm

Add +6 Armour and +6 Hull to all vehicles, and +1 Armour and +1 Hull to all spacecraft (that's +10 each on the character scale).

It's easy to remember, and if you do this for every vehicle and ship stat block, it keeps their comparative defenses relatively balanced.
But that would be going backwards... :D

I still use the 1st edition rules where it was 3 damage to for each vehicle hit.
Evyn
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby ZeroCochrane2099 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:25 pm

Infojunky wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:44 pm
ZeroCochrane2099 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:29 pm

Add +6 Armour and +6 Hull to all vehicles, and +1 Armour and +1 Hull to all spacecraft (that's +10 each on the character scale).

It's easy to remember, and if you do this for every vehicle and ship stat block, it keeps their comparative defenses relatively balanced.
But that would be going backwards... :D

I still use the 1st edition rules where it was 3 damage to for each vehicle hit.
I don't know what you mean by "backwards", but the 1st edition's 3 damage per vehicle hit also looks like a good way to go.
It would make tough vehicles proportionately tougher, rather than just a set amount tougher.
We need to see which "fix" works better in play.
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Infojunky » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:43 am

ZeroCochrane2099 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:25 pm
Infojunky wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:44 pm

But that would be going backwards... :D

I still use the 1st edition rules where it was 3 damage to for each vehicle hit.
I don't know what you mean by "backwards", but the 1st edition's 3 damage per vehicle hit also looks like a good way to go.
It would make tough vehicles proportionately tougher, rather than just a set amount tougher.
We need to see which "fix" works better in play.
Sorry, the Earlier comment about being backward was harking back to a heated exchange during the playtest of Vehicles for 2nd edition.
Evyn
Linwood
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Re: Vehicle damage clarification

Postby Linwood » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:52 pm

For a better fit with MgT2 you might want to tweak the modifiers for the Open Frame option. I think the points of Hull per Space for the different Frame types was supposed to do something similar but maybe it didn’t quite hit the mark.

I like the proposal for spacecraft but I propose adjusting it based on hull material. The modifier looks appropriate for crystalliron hulls but might be too much for lower-tech hull material.

I’m a little torn on this. Totally on board with the thought that you should not be able to disable a grav bike with an unarmed attack so IMTU I’d probably just declare you can’t do that (and if you’re hand isn’t protected you should take damage for the attack). But put a blade or club in that hand and I think i’d allow damage to the vehicle but limited only to certain systems - you could break a window with a club but not damage a tire, for example.

What about simply deducting 1D from the attack damage and if the damage dice go to zero the attack can’t affect most structures? Attacks with the AP trait might be immune from this (or not - that might make them too powerful). Natural attacks might be an exception.

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