Rapid Fire

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Jak Nazryth
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Rapid Fire

Postby Jak Nazryth » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:44 pm

Anyone who has military training, or raised on a farm around guns and have hunted their whole lives, or goes to a gun range on a consistent basis, or plays simulated tactical games like Air Soft and Paint ball, or even sat in a chair and played computer/console games... knows you can fire more than one shot "per round" with any gun... except when hunting with a black power rifle ;)

If a Traveller significant action like "Attack" approximates 4 seconds of time, I can personally (an easily) fire off at least 4 shots from my .40 cal S&W or my 9mm, and with my rifles and shotguns, it's just as easy. That's equals 1 squeeze of the trigger each second.
Technically, this is NOT burst fire, which is a function of the auto-setting selection switch on many weapons capable of full auto fire. This is simply a person squeezing the trigger more than once in a combat round.
I other game systems, you can do this, but the "kick" of the various guns are taken into consideration, which adds a cumulative negative skill check for each round you fire after the first... your personal str can also offset the "kick" of a particular gun.

I know this is breaching a rule concept not baked into the Core rules, but how would you handle situations when a character (especially those with military training) want to pull the trigger on a single shot gun more than once per round.
The famous "double tap" is a perfect example. In fact, most combat soldiers have their guns set to "single fire" but can rapidly squeeze off 2-3 rounds round in a single second... a rapid POP-POP-POP, usually followed by a pause or a shift to another target. "Full auto" setting in a real war generally only happens as a last resort when being overwhelmed or as suppression.

Is there any way the current Traveller combat rules can be modified to take this into consideration? Perhaps a player can take an additional shots based on the number of actual skill points they have in gun combat? For instance, anyone who is untrained or has a skill of 0 in gun combat, can shoot once. But players with skill points can add extra shots equal to their points, with a -2 DM per shot after the first... no aiming bonuses apply after the fist shot.
This can also be done in "Burt mode" and "Full auto mode" as well. A full auto weapon can throw 6, 10, 20 rounds per second down range (depending on the gun) as long as you keep your finger on the trigger. I'm assuming a Traveller "Attack" on full auto is a 1 second depression of the trigger. The "rapid fire" concept is simply the ability to pull the trigger more than once per round, no matter if your gun is single shot, burst shot, or full auto.

Maybe this is making things too complicated, but since Traveller prides itself on reality and real science/physics, this is the reality of how guns actually work at the range and on a battle field.

Has anyone addressed this concept in the past?
Jak Nazryth
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Jak Nazryth » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:54 pm

This same principal can also apply to melee combat.
Someone with "Blade 3" can go Jackie-Chan on someone... quick rapid set of slashing attacks.
legozhodani
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby legozhodani » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:25 pm

I have a feeling that the whole recoil rules bit was not used by the majority of players. For what ever reason, either convenience, forgotten or overall ease. I know our group didn't use it. I tried, but found it slowed the game and for us didn't work. Not to say I disagreed with the concept, just the system didn't work for us.

I believe however that rules for multiple shots are possible and worth a think. Would certainly show the difference between certain 'firearms' as some with no/negligible recoil such as flechette, snub and lasers would be well suited for such actions.

I have little firearms experience except with blackpowder and airsoft so shall bow to those that do. On the 'blade' front I have had 30 years experience and on the whole I just take traveller hand to hand to represent a flurry of blows and activity with hits being those that actualy made it through the guard.
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Condottiere » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:43 am

You coul make it a skill and/or specialization, after all, you're spending some time training and/or refining it.

Magazine capacity might not be such a handicap, since I've since I've seen people quad loading their shotguns incredibly fast, with a little accessory assistance.

There are some minor details like overheating the barrel.

As for muzzle loaders, there are some shortcuts which do cause some negative modifiers, wit the British reputedly being able to outshoot their opponents, though the bayonette charge being just as effective.
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:46 am

Here are two suggestions:

1) The Dual Weapons rule on p. 75 of the rulebook allows a traveller to attack with two weapons, with a penalty. A very simple solution is to allow a single weapon to be used twice, with the same penalty.

2) I'm assuming that the shoot action involves a bit of aiming and not just pulling the trigger. Split the major action shoot into two minor actions, aim and fire, and allow up to Three (!) shoot attacks per turn, at -1 each. This solution probably needs a range limit, and/or some form of cumulative penalty. Removing the 'aim' part of the shoot action might even make the attack count as untrained, with a -3 to hit? So, snap fire as a minor action, -3 to hit.
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby The Dark Avenger » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:38 pm

I've already written the part of Traveller Companion that deals with this.

It's not finalised, but there is a framework in place.
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legozhodani
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby legozhodani » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:17 pm

Could try the two weapon rule as previously suggested, with str modifier added to each shot. So weak characters with -1 modifier will be adding -3 and stronger -1. Gives an effect of recoil after the first 'braced' shots. If this is done as compound modifier it gets flippin dangerous to be around an over enthusiastic badly trained gunbunny!

First shot -2
second shot -4
third -6
+/- str modifier per shot.

With failed effect of 6 or more being weapon jams, friendly fire, injuring self etc, all sorts of fun!
:?
Interesting to read that it's being thought about for the companion.
Condottiere
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Condottiere » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:41 pm

Pulling a trigger could be a minor action.

Dexterity modifier could add or subtract to that.
Solomani666
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Solomani666 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:07 pm

My House Rules:
* Characters get 3 minor actions per turn plus Dex bonus with a minimum of 2 minor actions.
* Significant actions require 2 minor actions.
* With the exception of aiming, unused actions are lost at the end of a combat round.
Note: Aiming bonuses are reset if the target moves out of line of sight.

* Aimed attacks require 1 significant action (i.e. 2 minor actions)
* Snap attacks require 1 minor action. (Rushed task -2)
* If recoil exceeds Str DM then the difference is that number of minor actions that are lost after firing the weapon, spilling to the net combat round if need be.
arcador
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby arcador » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:12 am

It is your rule indeed, and you can use it however you want.

However, I want to add a comment which @anotherdilbert made in another similar thread.

If you give more combat advantages of high dexterity, it can become a really powerful stat.

In your case it gives:

- better chance to hit
- more actions, resulting in more chances to hit

Example:
Let's see two characters. Both have gun combat 1. One has Dex DM 0, the other has Dex DM +2.

Vanilla system:

The first has +1 to hit (ranges not accounted)
The second has +3 to hit (ranges not accounted)
Both have 1 attempt.

Actions modification:

The first has +1 to hit; can make 1 attack with +1, or can make 2 attacks with -1.
The second has +3 to hit; can make 2 attacks with +3, or can make 4 attacks with +1.

My point is, high DEX can really make a traveller extremely deadly in firearms combat, even more than he currently is.

As I said it is your rule, yet if you tight the bonus actions to another variable - for example, Athletics (dexterity) it will make the curve more balanced, as it will balance the choice between precision (dex) or speed (athletics).

This is only a comment and a suggestion. Until you playtest it with your group, you never know which suits you best.
GarethL
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby GarethL » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:37 am

My quick-fix for this was to multiply ammo consumption by 1d3 for all non-single-shot weapons,

Fire your pistol at a target? That's 1d3 shots taken, one of which stands a chance of hitting.

Fire a gauss pistol (auto 2 IIRC)? That's d3 x 6 ammo.

Fire a rocket launcher? One shot.

You need a minimum of 1x normal expenditure to make the attack at all.

It makes ammo consumption higher (and reloading more of a tactical decision), but otherwise keeps things the same. If you want to worry about the extra shots, just assume they're part of the attack Effect.
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:59 am

GarethL wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:37 am
My quick-fix for this was to multiply ammo consumption by 1d3 for all non-single-shot weapons,
...
If you want to worry about the extra shots, just assume they're part of the attack Effect.
I agree.

The system is abstract, it does not even try to model each round fired or each slash with a blade.
arcador
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby arcador » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:00 pm

GarethL wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:37 am
My quick-fix for this was to multiply ammo consumption by 1d3 for all non-single-shot weapons,

Fire your pistol at a target? That's 1d3 shots taken, one of which stands a chance of hitting.

Fire a gauss pistol (auto 2 IIRC)? That's d3 x 6 ammo.

Fire a rocket launcher? One shot.

You need a minimum of 1x normal expenditure to make the attack at all.

It makes ammo consumption higher (and reloading more of a tactical decision), but otherwise keeps things the same. If you want to worry about the extra shots, just assume they're part of the attack Effect.
I like this suggestion, which you if I am not mistaken, posted elsewhere as well.

Will try to suggest it to my players.

(once I prototyped a future game with a similar mechanic. It was inspired by the new XCOM in terms of ammo calcs)
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby GarethL » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:17 pm

I haven't, but possibly somebody else did,
Condottiere
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Condottiere » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:19 pm

The dexterity modifier could be used to add another minor action, or to increase success.
arcador
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby arcador » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:31 am

GarethL wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:17 pm
I haven't, but possibly somebody else did,
Do impose penalties when there is 1x ammo, but the D3 rolls on 2 or 3?
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby GarethL » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:49 pm

arcador wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:31 am
GarethL wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:17 pm
I haven't, but possibly somebody else did,
Do impose penalties when there is 1x ammo, but the D3 rolls on 2 or 3?
I don't - it isn't intended to have a colossal impact on the game, just add a little randomness - you can simply assume that you take more care with that last shot if you want.

But there's no reason you couldn't if you wanted too,
arcador
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby arcador » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:42 pm

I exercised the thought with a few rules, but they increased the cognitive load, because the "ammo roll" made the players go back and modify the damage. Since the ammo is usually calculated outside any rules I came to the same conclusion as your suggestion - complexity with insignificant impact.
Condottiere
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Condottiere » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:51 pm

Action points is probably the easiest.

The dexterity modifier adds or subtracts, and either aiming more carefully or pulling the trigger more quickly consumes them.
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Re: Rapid Fire

Postby Nobby-W » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:10 pm

The way that Striker and Azhanti High Lightning handled this is to assume that you fired multiple shots per turn. If you make your hit roll by 2 or more than you score an extra hit per 2 points that you make the roll by.

These systems had separate hit and damage rolls - you rolled damage once per hit. You could fairly readily adapt this type of system if you wanted to.

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