No Navy Medics?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Jump Dave
Weasel
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:51 pm

No Navy Medics?

Postby Jump Dave » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:36 am

Seems like the Navy career should include the option to acquire the Medic skill.

Here's where you can acquire the Medic skill on the career skill tables (obviously, the best way to guarantee getting the Medic skill is to go to University):

Skill tables, by Career, that include the Medic skill:

1. Service Skills: Scholar
2. Advanced Education table: Agent, Citizen, Marine, Rogue, Scout
3. Career Specialty table: Army (Support), Marine (Support), Scholar (Physician)
4. None: Drifter, Entertainer, Merchant, Navy, Noble, Prisoner

Most of these make sense, but given that the Navy is a military service, Medic seems like it should be an option.

My suggestion: replace Vacc Suit on the Navy (Line/Crew) specialty skills table with Medic. Vacc Suit is already available on the Navy Service Skills table, and as such, everyone who undergoes full basic training will receive Vacc Suit 0 automatically. And per the Vacc Suit skill description: "A Traveller will rarely need to make Vacc Suit checks under ordinary circumstances – merely possessing the skill is enough." The presence in the Navy Line/Crew specialty table matches up nicely with the Army (Support) and Marine (Support) specialty tables.

Thoughts?
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3421
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Reynard » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:19 pm

Hmm, could it possibly be that naval medical personnel are college grads that take Medic then enlist in the navy? According to MgT Core 2e page 56 Medic 2 is equivalent to a doctor.
Jump Dave
Weasel
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Jump Dave » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:43 pm

Sure, but that path is available to the other services too. The absence of Medic on the Navy tables means that star-spanning navies depend entirely on civilian-educated doctors for medical care, and that there's no opportunity for medical training once you're in the Navy. That seems unlikely to me.
Jeraa
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:01 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Jeraa » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:21 pm

Rather than replacing skills on the existing tables, why not just create more assignments? Why limit each occupation to only 3 assignments?
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 7318
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Condottiere » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:18 am

Buck for Navy Corpsman.
locarno24
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3062
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:46 pm
Location: Wildly Variable

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby locarno24 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:35 am

A lot of 'senior' surgeons might well be scholars or similar recruited as pre-trained medics.

For a generic emergency medic, however, don't take the skill tables as the be-all and end-all. Remember you can (or at least could in 1st edition - I assume someone will say if this is no longer true) also acquire skills via events:

Navy characters can potentially roll the following:
You are given advanced training in a specialist field.
Throw Education 8+ to gain any one skill.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
steve98052
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 931
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:13 am
Location: near Seattle

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby steve98052 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:50 am

locarno24 wrote:Navy characters can potentially roll the following:
You are given advanced training in a specialist field.
Throw Education 8+ to gain any one skill.
This is specifically stated to be only an improvement of a skill one already has.
DickTurpin
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby DickTurpin » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:00 pm

It is quite common for the military services to either recruit civilian doctors or even pay for their education in civilian universities in exchange for a specified length of service. I doubt that any service actually trains their own personnel beyond the first aid/EMT level for combat medics; their training is focused on the primary mission of the service.
steve98052
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 931
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:13 am
Location: near Seattle

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby steve98052 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:18 pm

I'd say that Medic-0 is the equivalent of a high school first aid class or the training to be a receptionist in a medical office.
Medic-1 is a emergency medical technician or nurse.
Medic-2 is an experienced nurse or inexperienced doctor.
Medic-3 is a doctor or very senior nurse.
Medic-4 is a superior doctor.

All of those have places in military service. Medic-0 or 1 could be E ranks, but 2 and up would be officers.

The absence of a medical track is an erratum.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 7318
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Condottiere » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:50 pm

What is it, twelve years to become a fully certified doctor, after graduating high school?

Looking at it that way, medic two makes you an intern.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 7318
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Condottiere » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:25 am

I haven't gone through medical school, I strongly suspect dissecting that frog in high school dissuaded me from a career in medicine.

I think you need Biology Two as well, to qualify as a medical doctor.

Game mechanics seem to be nebulous in this regard, but getting to Medic Four may require ten thousand hours of practice.
Jump Dave
Weasel
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Jump Dave » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:38 pm

Thanks for the replies!

Of course the Navy can recruit civilian medical personnel (our Navy does IRL), but so can every other service in the game.

It just stands out to me that the Navy offers no medical training when other military services do, and this seems like an easy fix (since Vacc Suit would still be available in the Service Skills table).
Saladman
Stoat
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:30 am
Location: down on the West coast

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Saladman » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:12 am

I never thought the career tables were meant to accurately model the population at large; the d6 range for skills doesn't do it justice. I've always assumed they're meant to return player characters. (To be fair, 2e adding university and prison makes this less obvious.) So it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Jump Dave wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:36 am
My suggestion: replace Vacc Suit on the Navy (Line/Crew) specialty skills table with Medic. Vacc Suit is already available on the Navy Service Skills table, and as such, everyone who undergoes full basic training will receive Vacc Suit 0 automatically. And per the Vacc Suit skill description: "A Traveller will rarely need to make Vacc Suit checks under ordinary circumstances – merely possessing the skill is enough." The presence in the Navy Line/Crew specialty table matches up nicely with the Army (Support) and Marine (Support) specialty tables.
If I added it anywhere myself I'd put in under Advanced Education, replacing Navigation. (Which is already an odd duck there, since Astrogation has it's own Adv Ed entry.)
steve98052 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:18 pm
I'd say that Medic-0 is the equivalent of a high school first aid class or the training to be a receptionist in a medical office.
Medic-1 is a emergency medical technician or nurse.
Medic-2 is an experienced nurse or inexperienced doctor.
Medic-3 is a doctor or very senior nurse.
Medic-4 is a superior doctor.
We're playing different games then. The plain text of 1e is that [Skill]-0 is trained and competent but lacking long experience; [Skill]-2 is a qualified professional. So Medic-2 is a full MD in my game, and Medic-0 could be an EMT, combat medic or even a medical student, depending on career.
Jeraa wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:21 pm
Rather than replacing skills on the existing tables, why not just create more assignments? Why limit each occupation to only 3 assignments?
Something like?

Corpsman/Medical
Survival 4+ Int, Advancement 8+ Edu
1. Medic
2. Life Science (any)
3. Admin
4. Computer
5. Sensors
6. Engineering (Life Support)
madmike
Mongoose
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:02 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby madmike » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:58 pm

Clement Sector Hub Federation Navy career book has a full medical career path for both commissioned and enlisted ranks.
Image
SOCS Series
Hub Federation Navy & Ground Forces
21 Vehicles
Anderson & Felix Guide to Naval Architecture
Wendy's Naval Guides
Artificial: Robots in Clement Sector

A2L Far Trader
Ship Books from Moon Toad
steve98052
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 931
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:13 am
Location: near Seattle

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby steve98052 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:17 pm

Saladman wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:12 am
. . .
steve98052 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:18 pm
I'd say that Medic-0 is the equivalent of a high school first aid class or the training to be a receptionist in a medical office.
Medic-1 is a emergency medical technician or nurse.
Medic-2 is an experienced nurse or inexperienced doctor.
Medic-3 is a doctor or very senior nurse.
Medic-4 is a superior doctor.
We're playing different games then. The plain text of 1e is that [Skill]-0 is trained and competent but lacking long experience; [Skill]-2 is a qualified professional. So Medic-2 is a full MD in my game, and Medic-0 could be an EMT, combat medic or even a medical student, depending on career.
. . .
Actually, it looks like we're in pretty close agreement, except for Medic-0. The high school first aid class example isn't good, but if we assume a school where a certain number of students are expected to be the school's first aid team, that probably fits Medic-0. An experienced receptionist in a doctor's office would probably also qualify as Medic-0, with stronger understanding of the diagnostic side of things (does that fever rate a call back from a nurse before lunch, or an immediate trip to the emergency room) rather than practice (slowing a bleeding wound).

In another thread, I mentioned steps between the −3 default for no training at all and the no penalty, no bonus of skill-0. The high school first aid class might be one of those levels.
E4MC
Weasel
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:47 am

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby E4MC » Sun May 26, 2019 2:52 pm

Sorry, I'm a little late to this thread, but I had this question too because, at least in the US, the Navy provides all medical personnel and services to the Navy and Marine Corps; The Marine Corps has no medical personnel of its own. And when I tried to create a Navy medical professional, with years of service toward retirement, I wasn't able to do it under the game rules. So I decided to start homebrewing the problem and did some research online and found out there are two paths one can take to become a medical professional in the US military.

The first path is The Health Professional Scholarship Program. One can apply to have the military cover their medical school tuition and education related expenses. In return, the applicant signs a contract agreeing to attend officer development school during their summer breaks from medical school and then serve in the military after graduation for one year for each year of medical school the military paid for, for a minimum of three years. The graduate enters the military as a commissioned officer of O3 rank and usually serves his/her residency at a military hospital. However, the graduate can apply for a waiver to serve his/her residency at a civilian hospital but receives no military pay while doing so and is not commissioned as a officer O3 until entering the military.

The second path is to attend the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. This university is like a military academy. The training is year-round because it covers comprehensive military training in addition to medical training. The student enters the school as a commissioned officer of O1 rank, wears a uniform, and receives military drill and physical conditioning. In addition to having his tuition and education expenses paid for, the student also receives monthly pay. Upon graduation, the student is promoted to officer O3 rank and must serve his/her residency at a military hospital and serve at least seven years in the military. Since the student entered the school as a commissioned officer, time at the school counts toward retirement in the military.

I haven't checked, but I'd bet military lawyers are handled somewhat in the same way.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 7318
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Condottiere » Sun May 26, 2019 7:29 pm

Medical School: Any character who graduates with honors from college or the Naval Academy may apply for admission to medical school. The admission throw determines if the character begins attending medical school; if unsuccessful, the individual then continues normally to entrance into the Navy. The success throw determines if the character remains in medical school for the full four-year term: if unsuccessful, the character has aged one year (to age 23) and then may enlist

Skills: The following skills are received automatically— +1 Education, Medic-3, Admin-1. Honors Graduates also receive Medic-1 and Computer-1.

in the Navy (or enter as an officer if a commission has been received through NOTC or the Naval Academy) for a short term of three years. The skills shown are received automatically. If the honors throw is achieved, the character receives one additional level of medic skill and one level of computer skill. The character then graduates (at age 26). He or she may apply for a direct commission (which is granted automatically) as a lieutenant (rank O3) in the medical branch of the Navy (any of the three types of navies may be selected by the character).
E4MC
Weasel
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:47 am

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby E4MC » Sun May 26, 2019 8:07 pm

I think you're being too generous with your medic skill levels. I don't think anyone should be graduating from medical school with higher than a Medic2, as every level indicates several years of experience; they just wouldn't have the experience required for a higher level.

Here's the homebrew I came up with for military medical personnel.

- Remove Medic from the Army and Marine Support Tables and replace with Admin. Remove Medic from the Army Personal Development Table and replace with Carouse.

- On the Army and Navy Enlisted Ranks and Bonuses Table, substitute Medic1 for Mechanic1 and Recon1 for Army and Navy Enlisted Ranks 1.

- For Army Medics and Navy Corpsmen, add a specialist skills table with the following skills:
1 Drive or Vacc Suit
2 Fly
3 Gun Combat
4 Electronics
5 Investigate
6 Persuade

Why did I take Medic off the Army and Navy Skills and Training tables? Medics/Corpsmen are enlisted personnel who are like paramedics, so they would not have a skill level above 1 without advanced training. They will get Medic1 from rank 1 on the Enlisted Ranks and Bonuses Table. They can get Medic2 through advanced training from Army Event 8 and Navy Event 5, and that would probably represent the medical personnel in special operations units who are much more skilled through receiving advanced trauma medical training, including surgical procedures, at civilian hospitals.

- Give Medic 0 to Army, Marine, and Navy enlisted and officers as part of their basic training because all military personnel should be trained in first aid during basic training.

FOR ARMY AND NAVY MEDICAL OFFICERS:

There are two paths:

UNIVERSITY MEDICAL SCHOOL TUITION PAID FOR BY THE MILITARY - 4-year Term:
- Entry: Edu8+. DM-1 if in Term 2, DM-2 if in Term 3. DM+1 if SOC 9+.
- Skills: Gain Science: Biology 0 and Medic 1. Increase EDU by +1.
- Graduation: Int 8+. If 12+ is rolled, graduate with honors.

Graduation Benefits:
- Increase the above skills to level 1 and level 2 respectively.
- Increase EDU by an additional+2.
- Graduation requires automatic entry into the Army or Navy as a commissioned officer of Rank 2, and the Traveller must serve at least one 4-year term.
- Graduation with honors allows a DM+2 to the advancement roll during a Traveller's first term in the Army or Navy.
- A Traveller entering the Army or Navy gains the following skills at level 0 as basic training in lieu of the normal service skills: Admin, Athletics, Gun Combat, Investigate, Diplomat, Persuade. This represents a combination of medical and military skills that the Traveller learned at medical school during the regular school year and at officer development school during the summers.
- Travellers who fail to graduate must enter the Army or navy as enlisted, gaining only the normal basic training service skills for that military career, and must serve at least one term as a medic or corpsman


MILITARY MEDICAL ACADEMY - 4-year term:
- Entry: INT 9+. DM-2 if in Term Two, DM-4 if in Term Three. If successful, the Traveller is commissioned as an officer Rank 1.
- Skills: Gain Leadership1; Medic1; and Science: Biology0. Also gain Admin0; Athletics0; GunCombat0; Investigate0; Diplomat0; and Persuade0 in lieu of the service skills of the military career the academy is tied to, as with basic training. This represents a combination of medical and military skills taught by the academy.
- Graduation: Int 8+. DM+1 if SOC 8+. If 11 is rolled, graduate with honors.

Graduation Benefits:
- Increase Medic and Science: Biology to Level 2 and Level 1 respectively.
- Increase two of the other skills received in lieu of service skills to Level 1.
- Increase EDU by +1.
- Increase rank to officer rank 2.
- If the Traveller graduated with honors, increase SOC by +1 as well.
- Graduation requires automatic entry into the career the academy is tied to immediately upon graduation and the graduate must serve at least two four-year terms in the career.
- Graduation with honors allows a DM+2 to the advancement roll during a Traveller's first term in the career the academy is tied to.
- Graduation allows the 4-year term spent at the academy to count as a term for Mustering Out Benefit and the 5-term prerequisite for a pension in the career the academy is tied to.
- Travellers who fail to graduate must enter the Army or navy as enlisted and must serve at least two terms as a medic or corpsman.

For all Army and Navy medical officers:
- On the Army officer Ranks and Bonuses Table, remove Tactics(Military)1 from Rank 3 and add Medic+1 to Rank 4.
- On the Navy officer Ranks and Bonuses Table, remove Tactics from Rank 3 and add Medic+1 to Rank 4.
HalC
Mongoose
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby HalC » Wed May 29, 2019 12:17 pm

Looking back at Classic Traveller:

Medical-1 is sufficent to qualify a character for the position of medic on a starship crew. An

Medical-2 or better allows a DM of +1 when reviving low passengers (each normally throws 5+ to revive after a trip; otherwise the passenger dies.

Medical-3 is sufficient for a character to be called doctor, and assumes a license to practice medicine, including writing prescriptions, handling most ailments, and dealing with other doctors on a professional level. A dexterity of 8+ is required for a doctor to also be a surgeon.


From Megatraveller:

MEDICS
Any character with at least Medical-1 is a medic and is eligible to be hired as a medic on a starship crew. Any character with at least Medical-4 is a doctor and may establish an independent medical practice. Any doctor with Dex 8 + is a surgeon as well as a doctor.


The problem with the above mentioned quote from the character book, is the fact that the example given for MERCHANT DOCTOR JAMES ANDERSON pg 18, shows this:

"FOURTH TERM
Things are looking up for Anderson, until a pirate raid nearly kills him (survival requires 5 +, DM + 2 for Int; he rolls 3 + 2 = 5). He again fails the test for 3rd Officer (roll 10 + , DM +1 for Int; he rolls 7). He thinks his path lies more in volunteering for special duty, which he receives (roll 4 + ; he rolls 7). He reenlists and begins a fifth term (roll 4 + ; he rolls 5).
Skills: He is eligible for two skills this term. He gets several bridge assignments at the communications console (Table 2, roll 5 =Technical; he selects Communications) and, continuing his medical studies (Table 4, roll 1 = Medical), gains certification as a full ship’s doctor.
"

What is missing in this is that the first three terms are such that the character has gained Medial during the first term and the second, but not the third. As a consequence, he's arrived at the status of Ship's Doctor with only medic 3.

T4 states that any character who graduates from Medical school graduates with a Medical Doctor degree. Minimum Medical skill upon graduating from College is Medical 3. This implies that Doctor status is conferred upon those with Medical 3. Later on in the book, I find this:

"Medical-I is sufficient to qualify a character for the position of medic on a starship crew. Medical-3 allows a character to assume a license to practice medicine, including writing prescriptions, handling most ailments, and communicating with other doctors on a professional level."

In the end? As there is no listing in Mongoose Traveller 1st edition that I can find, denoting what levels of skill mean what, I'd largely guess that any guess would be valid. On the whole, since MgT is supposed to be closely allied with CT, and that three of the Traveller systems denote Medical-3 (or Medic-3) as being a licensed practicing doctor, that MgT likely would follow the same path.

Your mileage may vary of course. ;)
Moppy
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:42 pm

Re: No Navy Medics?

Postby Moppy » Wed May 29, 2019 12:37 pm

IDK what the rules say as they're a mess but if hospital doc is medical-4, and medical school grads are medical-3, there's no actual problem

Civilian hospital doctor requires additional training after medical school. Med school here is 5 years from age 18-23 (to skill-3) and after that you have work 2 years under supervision, before you can be one yourself and be skill-4.

A GP (the doc you see off the streeet) has additional years training on a hospital doctor - presumably because they're working alone and see a greater variety of weirdness? GPs don't train at surgery. If I needed emergency surgery and there was no hospital, I'd trust a veterinarian more. They have have training for it.

I don't how know military works. They probably specialise in bullet damage and send illness to civilian hospitals.

I should know how doctors at sea work, and it's probably relevant to Traveller ships, but I don't. Wrong type of boat.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests