Ships at the Dawn of Jump

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Reynard
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:50 pm

I'm also thinking classic Old eccentric scientist who invented the jump drive and has a daughter. Yes, crazy scientist.
Reynard
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:01 pm

Glen, you reminded me of My Traveller Universe based on the team using the first prototype jump ship to go to Alpha Centauri where they find the devastated remains of the Droyne homeworld. The project had to keep the whole work quiet originally because of the fear of certain groups on Earth that didn't take the news of radio and tv signals from Epsilon Eridani where the Vargr live might freak out again and start wars.

I need to find that ship and see how it upgrades to 2e.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:19 am

Let's see.

Two and a half percent volume per parsec; plus five tonnes.

Hundred tonne starship needs two and half tonnes of jump drive per parsec; plus five tonnes.

Technological level nine only permits monojumping.

Doubling the size of that jump drive gets you either five plus five tonnes, or five plus ten tonnes.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:58 am

Condottiere wrote:Two and a half percent volume per parsec; plus five tonnes.
Drive size = 100 × 2,5% + 5, minimum 10 = 10 dT.
Double drive size = 2 × 10 = 20 dT.

For a 1000 dT ship:
Drive size = 1000 × 2,5% + 5, minimum 10 = 30 dT.
Double drive size = 2 × 30 = 60 dT.

Why would only certain parts of the drive be doubled?
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:19 am

Ten tonnes is minimum.

The formula is consistent.

A one parsec jump drive for a hundred tonne starship is seven and a half tonnes.

Double that as a requirement for an early prototype, you're within the ten tonne minimum.

The question is, if the overhead is doubled.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:33 am

Condottiere wrote:The question is, if the overhead is doubled.
Size Reduction: This reduces the tonnage consumed by the jump drive by 10%. This can take the drive below the minimum size of 10 tons.
This makes it clear that the size modification is applied to 10 dT.

If the minimum of 10 dT was applied after the modified size, the calculation could not result in a drive size less than 10 dT?
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:01 am

The default minimum.

Though I don't see the cost benefit of trying to eke out en extra one or two or three tonnes from the jump drives, except if it's a rich kid's roadster.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:07 am

Going over HG2e designing. A bit of mental synergy gave me the idea that the dawn of jump starts not a TL 9 but when civilizations make the first connections of theories. The tech level a particular piece of technology comes to fruition represents when all the systems and components reach a stable, viable and optimal form. This is the commercial rather than the experimental. Before that are the bulky, expensive prototypes. The Dawn of Jump would be TL 8.

Prototype Jump 1 ship 100 tons TL 8 MCr.107.1
Hull: Streamlined, light
Armor: 0
Maneuver: 1g, Prototype (Increased size)
Jump: 1, Prototype (Increased size)
Power: Fusion 40 PPs
Fuel 1 Jump, 12 weeks operation
Bridge: Standard
Computer: 5bis
Software: Maneuver/0, Library, Jump Control/1, Prototype (10 bandwidth)
Sensors: Basic
Weapons: Single turret (Laser drill)
Staterooms: 6 Standard Crew - Pilot, astrogator, engineer, maintenance, medic
Cargo 4 tons
Options: Aerofins, fuel scoops, fuel processor (20t/day), fuel/cargo container (11.55t), workshop (2 users), Docking space for 4 ton TL 8 tracked ATV)

This would be one of any similar designs. It could be of any streamlined shape (Forbidden Planet flying saucer?). Fission, solar sails, batteries and reaction drives could replace or supplement fusion and maneuver. It is a relatively cheap testbed and first attempt for local exploration. The fuel/cargo container gives flexibility to jump a 1 parsec gulf while giving it cargo capacity in cluster regions. The crew are test pilots as well as first observers collecting the most macro information but with some ability to look closer... with caution. They will cross train in a variety of skills. These are your first scout crews.


As you can guess, ships during this time will be the ironclad of starships. They might be the only thing to explore and colonize for decades before TL 9 systems are available. Imagine what ships will look like using the equivalent of vacuum tube technology before slimmed down for an integrated circuit world. Oh, by the way, just like the 1940-1960s scifis, your intrepid explorers are outfitted with their TL 8 Vacc suits, audio/visual hand communicators and all those grenades and sidearms first time explorers mandatorily seem to carry while seeking strange new worlds and contact new life.
Last edited by Reynard on Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:45 am

You could save some space and about MCr 25 by using Energy Inefficient drives instead of Increased Size. You wouldn't even have to increase the PP.

You could save slightly by using Collapsible Fuel Tanks in the regular cargo hold in stead of the Fuel/Cargo container.

(You uncovered a bug in my spreadsheet, thank you.)
Reynard
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:50 am

I gave it the increased engine size for a retro bulky feel. That's why I mention the vacuum tube reference. When you look back at our own technological history, things compact as tech improves. One civilization might have hit on components that control size but are very inefficient at controlling the energy manipulation.

I still like the versatility of the F/CC as integral to a ship design. This is one of many possible designs for prototypes. One civ uses bladders while another uses F/CC and another tries drop tanks to boost over a one parsec rift. All sorts of variations for motive and power sources depending on the concepts of the engineers and the sciences developed. That's the great thing with Mongoose High Guard giving options.

The prototype stage is a time of experimenting and ingenuity. Look at all the designs tried with aircraft and steamships.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:18 pm

Here's another limiter for space exploration especially in its infancy, supplies. You can have all the fuel you want by sacrificing other tonnage and fly further and further out from a supply point. Problem should be the needs of the crew over the time and distance. Regular Traveller adventure rely on ships normally completing a run in one jump/2 weeks then refueling and resupplying, your monthly Life Support and Supplies. It's assumed supplies are swapped out without having to store them somewhere. We regularly handwave supply considerations for long term trips.


For exploration missions, supply and maintenance should be important and will be a limiting factor. You ship might haul enough fuel for 6 jumps plus fuel to run the power for the jump time and exploration but this can run well above the monthly allotment for integral supplies. I suggest using the Life Support Requirement rules from Adventure 1: Beltstrike. It gives cost and space requirements for carrying extra supplies based on the number of people on a ship. This means some tonnage will be dedicated to extended range supply. I often include this on ship designs that are known to spend more time away from bases. The Prototype Jump 1 ship's 4 ton hold is partially for that reason. \


If nothing else, such limitation encourage the creation of depots along routes showing great promise for further exploration and future colonization. Some may be the only reason there's a port on a dead ball that dies out and is abandoned when better routes and technology arrive while this could be the very beginning for a growing starport over the decades. This could also be links of communications for explorers.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:44 pm

As the first gen prototype jump ships prove the worth of their ship systems and preliminary surveys bring back data on surrounding stars, the keels will be laid for the next class of ship, the survey ship or simply lab ship. Twice as large and packed with the ability to sit in a system for months at a time conducting detailed surveys and focused expeditions to determine if the system has value for a colony or outpost. The labs are generally equipped for biology, chemistry, planetology and xenology which can be modified by data from prior expedition information. The additional airlock is for isolation protocols.


Survey ship 200 tons Prototype jump 1 TL 8 MCr.145.665
Hull: streamlined, light
Armor: 0
Maneuver: 1g, prototype Increased size)
Jump: 1, Prototype (Increased size)
Power: Fusion, TL 8 70 PPs
Fuel: 1x Jump 1, 4 weeks operation (16 weeks with solar panels)
Bridge: Standard
Computer: 5bis
Software: Maneuver/0, Library, Jump Control/1, Prototype (10 bandwidth)
Sensors: Basic
Weapons: Single turret (Laser drill)
Staterooms: 10 Crew - Pilot, astrogator, engineer, maintenance, medic, 4 scientist
Cargo: 12.75 tons
Options: Aerofins, fuel scoops, fuel processor (20 tons/day), fuel/cargo container (21 tons), workshop (2 users), full hangar for 4 ton TL8 tracked ATV, laboratories (4 science stations), medical by (5 patients), common area, solar panels, library., additional airlock.
Last edited by Reynard on Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:29 pm

Once suitable systems have been analyzed and approved for habitation, assigned as colonies or outposts, ships will begin transporting people, equipment and supplies for several construction phases. You won't see full cities and populations spring up. Instead, construction towns are established to build habitation centers that perform specialized functions either for the colony infrastructure or for the colony's mission. Over time, these will merge and integrate as the population grows and spreads.

Haulers need not be huge to bring in enough to stage each project in different locations. The first class of Heavy Haulers are a mere 1000 tons. Being able to land allows them to be on site to quickly disembark passengers as they wake from cryo while unloading material is efficiently distributed. Any material to return to base is also easily swapped out. Using low berths with a competent medical facility cuts back tremendously on space and life support needs for so many people that can be used for more cargo. This is also why these vessels don't use fuel/cargo containers or fuel bladders, every ton is for cargo. Drop tanks are too hazardous at this tech level. If it Is determined there are important worlds beyond a 1 parsec rift, a fuel/supply depot will be established for regular hauler traffic. Exploration and survey ships may still rely on their integral F/CC systems.

Heavy Hauler (Colony carrier) 1000 ton TL 8 MCr.453.201
Hull: Streamlined, light
Armor: 0
Maneuver: 1g, prototype (Increased size)
Jump: 1, prototype (Increased size)
Power: Fusion TL 8 340 PPs
Fuel: 1x Jump1, 9.6 weeks operation
Bridge: Standard
Computer: 5bis
Software: Maneuver/0, Library, Jump Control/1, Prototype (10 bandwidth)
Sensors: Basic
Staterooms: 10 standard Crew- pilot, astrogator, 2 engineers, maintenance, 3 medics, officer, administrator.
Cargo: 547.75 tons
Options: Fuel scoops, Fuel processor (20 tons/day), 300 low berths, medical bay (10 patients), hangar for 10 ton cargo loader, cargo crane, common area, stables (20 cattle)

Cargo hauler TL 8 MCr. 0.081
Heavy ground 20 spaces Agility -1 Hull 60
Speed (cruise) Medium (Slow) Reduced fuel capacity Range 100
Crew: 2
Improved controls, Basic communications, Basic sensors, Heavy crane (10 tons)
Cargo: 48 tons
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:58 pm

Heavy hauler (Terraformer) 1000 tons TL 8 MCr.490.401
Hull: Streamlined, light
Armor 0
Maneuver: 1g prototype (Increased size)
Jump: 1 prototype (Increased size)
Power: Fusion TL 8 310 PPs
Fuel: 1x Jump 1, 9.6 weeks operation
Bridge: Standard
Computer: 5bis
Software: Maneuver/0, Library, Jump Control/1, Prototype (10 bandwidth)
Sensors: Basic
Weapon: Single turret (Laser drill)
Staterooms: 80 Standard Crew - pilot, astrogator, 2 engineers, maintenance, medic, officer, administrator, 20 scientists, 50 technicians
Cargo: 236.75 tons
Options: Fuel scoop, fuel processor (20 tons/day), workshops (10 users), Medical bay (10 patients), hangar for 10 ton cargo loader, cargo crane, common area, laboratories (20 scientists), full hangar for 10 ton ATV

Using the standard Heavy hauler frame, these ships are self-contained facilities for a system of spot terraforming establishing suitable life compatible for human habitation. Rather than grand macroforming huge regions, let alone entire planets, these early attempts focus on local regions around colonies that will naturally spread with time slowly linking into larger biospheres. Many macroforming projects can occur simultaneously either concentrating on a particular environment or seeding a variety of biospheres depending on the regions natural ecology and climate. Many projects will attempt introducing terran life forms that can coexist with the host world's own without massive invasiveness.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:26 pm

It is canonical within the OTU for prototype jump engines to require more fuel.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:13 pm

I really haven't seen OTU prototype ships. These I'm presenting are examples for prototypes for any universe possibly even OTU. High Guard introduces the concepts of prototype ship technology so you can actually see what they would look like. This was my inspiration to create these ship after I created the other TL 9 ships which were representing a similar concept of exploration and colonization when a civilization first travels the stars. You can now create ships of each pre-TL jump as experimental ships which could be around for years or decades until the bugs are worked out. The Enterprises from the Enterprise TV show and Star Trek: The Movie can be examples of prototypes with disadvantages.

I notice the are advantages for a jump engine to use less fuel and/or energy efficient while the only disadvantage is being energy inefficient. Seem the answer is you can't have a fuel inefficient jump engine, canon or otherwise.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:02 pm

You have to know where to look...
OTU canon is quite a beast.

Early Vilani jump drives, early Hiver jump drives and early Terran jump drives are all mentioned as being fuel hogs in one place or another.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:06 pm

Hmm, we could translate it to energy inefficient in line with HG2e just to keep thing simple. Not all versions of Traveller had power and fuel used by the jump drive.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:23 pm

Reynard wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:40 am
Yes, Prometheus is Alpha Centauri on the Traveller map and still difficult to reach whether 2 parsecs on the map or 1.4 parsecs in our reality. In some versions of Traveller, we would have been unable to reach our first star by the jump rules. Some books made the 100 ton spacecraft unique by starting at a drive capable of 2J. High Guard2e has set that back to 1J. This is why I decided many civilizations will encounter the two parsec dilemma and sacrifice tonnage to extend a ship for a second mid-jump but they must be sure there's a fuel source at the other end. Explorers would be the obvious first choice. Colony ships, haulers and other ship designs will have to decide how to deal with the J1 drive limit whether to sacrifice space for fuel or remain J1s and stick to the Mains. More than likely, most ships will stick to routes between worlds in close proximity to each other rather than along strings of worlds, in other words, there will be more ships hopping between a couple of worlds each.

Fuel depots might be far more common in J1 societies to solve the limit. Rest stops to refuel, resupply and relax. Known throughout space for their distinctive spires facing galactic center and their bright orange roofs (look it up).

I'd say during the J1 years, exploration will be far more selective for useful resources and colony habitation as time and distance will be premium. Some dirtballs might be just another rest stop on the way to actual valuable real estate. When J2 and J3 appear, these rest stops will become ghost towns or inhabited artifacts no longer needed like towns and villages passed by the freeway.

Security(war) vessels might be very different than what 3I normally fields as these craft must carry more fuel and lose other things. You think regular Traveller designs are cramped? Might bigger ships be necessary to hold more yet run like a smaller vessel?

Looking over the weapons selection up to TL 9, ships will look almost steampunk with missiles, torpedoes and the occasional pulse laser.
There is nothing that prevents a TL 9 starship from having twice as much fuel as it needs to make a jump-1 and then having it make two successive jump-1s using its two jumps worth of jump fuel. It doesn't take higher technology to have larger fuel tanks.
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Re: Ships at the Dawn of Jump

Postby Reynard » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:04 pm

You'll notice in my original post I designed a TL 9 ship that does carry double fuel at the sacrifice of tonnage for the purpose of exploration beyond 1 parsec rift boundaries. More that anything else, the first drives can be a nuisance to space exploration and colonization without sacrifice. Thing is we're so used to a Traveller system generation that creates old civilizations that have risen and fallen to make so much diversity. Explains why so many worlds that are best considered uninhabitable are heavily colonized even by low tech societies. We're also used to seeing a lot of high tech that makes reaching anywhere and dropping a colony or outpost just because it's there.

In a more realistic campaign, first exploration and colonization will be very slow and the civilization will be very picky as to what's important. You'll spend your resources hunting for the most compatible worlds first for spreading the population. Unless the home system is seriously lacking in gas giants, planetary bodies and asteroid belts, there should be little reason to create mining facilities elsewhere. At best, you would look and exploit very rare materials that will more than pay their weight. Great thing about most scifi, and Traveller fits here, is how often there are 'compatible' worlds to settle. It could be population issues no one want to deal with or just large groups with similar interests that need to get away. Resource worlds would be more important to colonies that either don't have native resources or wish to keep their home pristine. Nearby systems would be exploited to supply the closest colonies to keep costs down. This would create a clustering of reliant systems which can also lead to isolation as distance become greater and that would be very prevalent with harder to reach systems beyond those rift barriers. You might see many worlds unused by virtue they are just not worth exploiting so there could be lots of 'wilderness' surrounding the civilized locations.

Time would adjust society after decades or centuries. Unless there was some apocalyptic disaster, technology would be homogenous in the beginning. The effects of isolation and social development could have a world advance faster than the average or digress. At least one version of Traveller showed how long technological advancement can take. We're again talking decades and centuries. That means a lot will be going on before the next achievement in jump drive occurs. An empire could remain very small and may see development of break off empires out of their own colonies separated by distance. By the time Jump drive 2 arrives, you can have well defined and possibly disparate entities. Your biggest rivals could be yourself.

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