High Guard - Errors?

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snrdg121408
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:54 pm

Early PST AnotherDilbert and AndrewW
AnotherDilbert wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:I've checked on DriveThruRPG which shows my copy of HG 2e and the other bits are supposedly up to date.
I have the 2016-09-01 version, which is the latest I can see on DriveThruRPG.
Thank you for confirming that I too have the latest PDF copy of HG 2e.
AndrewW wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:Has then been an update for the ships and how can I get them if there are updates?
There hasn't been anything released since the PDF that is available on DriveThruRPG. Some ships have been adjusted since then, but currently the PDF there is the latest available. And has already gone to print so everything might not make it into the print version. There likely wont be any further updates till next year.
Thank you AndrewW too for confirming I have the latest update of the HG 2e PDF. While I like print copies I do not have the room to store them properly and for easy access. I now have something to look forward to and begin to practice the variant of "Are we there yet?" relating to publications.;-)
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:10 pm

Hello all, I can answer the remaining rules question regarding firmpoint cost. The examples ill leave to my colleague andrew and whomever else.

Firmpoints have a cost. This is no different than hardpoints having a cost. The cost of the firmpoint (or hardpoint) - is based on the mounting type (fixed, single, double, etc). There is no separate cost for "firmpoint or hardpoint", just the weapon and mounting type on it.

Second, are all fixed mounts on the smallcraft firm points? I'll let the designers of those craft speak to it. But by raw, smallcraft ONLY have firmpoints (not regular hardpoints).

Finally, do firm/hardpoints have to be designated during construction.
Personal opinion: No
RAW: you have to be a stickler to get an answer, and even then the best you can get is "No". Page 24 quote "A ship has 1 hardpoint for every..."

A ship has hardpoints. It does not need any effort to have them.

So with the proper starport facilities, you'd be able to add weapons (and it would be a lot easier if the craft was modular).

Sam W
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:01 pm

Hello Nershei,

My apologies for failing to wrap my mind and the appearance of nitpicking about firmpoints.
Nerhesi wrote:Hello all, I can answer the remaining rules question regarding firmpoint cost. The examples ill leave to my colleague andrew and whomever else.

Firmpoints have a cost. This is no different than hardpoints having a cost. The cost of the firmpoint (or hardpoint) - is based on the mounting type (fixed, single, double, etc). There is no separate cost for "firmpoint or hardpoint", just the weapon and mounting type on it.

Second, are all fixed mounts on the smallcraft firm points? I'll let the designers of those craft speak to it. But by raw, smallcraft ONLY have firmpoints (not regular hardpoints).

Finally, do firm/hardpoints have to be designated during construction.
Personal opinion: No
RAW: you have to be a stickler to get an answer, and even then the best you can get is "No". Page 24 quote "A ship has 1 hardpoint for every..."

A ship has hardpoints. It does not need any effort to have them.

So with the proper starport facilities, you'd be able to add weapons (and it would be a lot easier if the craft was modular).

Sam W
Definitions for:
Ship: A spacecraft of 100 tons or more p. 4
Small Craft: A spacecraft of less than 100 tons. Small craft are incapable of jumping to other star systems p. 4.
Spacecraft: None provided in MgT HG 2e Introduction on p. 4-5. However from the context I think the definition is: Any manned or unmanned vehicle designed to travel in space either between planetary bodies or star systems.

Hardpoints on a ship, hulls >= 100 d-tons per MgT HG 2e Introduction Definitions General p. 4, do not require space or have a cost in MCr are attachment points for installation of weapons by mounting the weapons in fixed mounts, turrets, barbettes, bays, or a spinal mount.

a. Fixed Mount attached to a hardpoint: Hardpoint 0 d-tons + Fixed mount 0 d-tons; Hardpoint MCr0 + Fixed mount MCr0.1
b. Turret attached to a hardpoint: Hardpoint 0 d-tons + Turret 1 d-tons; Hardpoint MCr0 + Turret MCr varies per Mount table pp. 24 & 67
c. Barbette attached to a hardpoint: Hardpoint 0 d-tons + Barbette 5 d-tons; Hardpoint MCr0 + Barbette MCr varies per Mount table pp. 25 & 68
d. Bay attached to a hardpoint: Hardpoint 0 d-tons + Bay 50/100/500 d-tons; Hardpoint MCr0 + Barbette MCr varies per Mount table pp. 27 & 68
e. Spinal mount attached to a hardpoint: Hardpoint 0 d-tons + Spinal Mount d-tons; Hardpoint MCr0 + Spinal Mount MCr varies per Mount table pp. 29 & 68

Page 23 "Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

Minor quibble by definition "Ships" are hulls >= 100 d-tons the correct term in my opinion should be the generic term "Spacecraft" a suggested correction might be:

"Spacecraft of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

Weapon systems are attached to small craft by using firmpoints which are fixed mounts. A fixed mount has a cost of MCr0.1 that indicates to me a firmpoint has a cost of MCr0.1.

With the updated clarifications here is how I understand the firmpoint:

"Spacecraft of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft can have a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), that can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

a. Fixed Mount attached to a firmpoint: Firmpoint 0 d-tons + Fixed mount 0 d-tons; Firmpoint MCr0 + Fixed mount MCr0.1
b. Turret attached to a firmpoint: Firmpoint 0 d-tons + Turret 1 d-tons; Firmpoint MCr0 + Turret MCr varies per Mount table pp. 24 & 67
c. Barbette attached to two firmpoints: 2 Firmpoints 0 d-tons + Barbette 5 d-tons; 2 Firmpoints MCr0 + Barbette MCr varies per Mount table pp. 25 & 68

Number of Weapons:
Firmpoints: Up to 3 depending on hull size
Fixed mount: One fixed mount per firmpoint with one turret class weapon per fixed mount
Turret mount: One single weapon turret per firmpoint with one turret class weapon per turret
Barbette mount: One barbette per two firmpoint
Combinations: A mixture of fixed mounts and turrets. One barbette and one fixed mount or one turret.

The ship record sheets for the Pebble p. 96 and Passenger Shuttle p. 106 do not include a Weapons block. Can they install weapons now?

The Launch's ship record sheet on p. 96 has an empty Weapons block is this the way to denote an empty firmpoint?

Minor edit 1213 PST put a space between a comma and barbette
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:56 pm

Nerhesi wrote:Firmpoints have a cost. This is no different than hardpoints having a cost. The cost of the firmpoint (or hardpoint) - is based on the mounting type (fixed, single, double, etc). There is no separate cost for "firmpoint or hardpoint", just the weapon and mounting type on it.
...


Finally, do firm/hardpoints have to be designated during construction.
Personal opinion: No
...
A ship has hardpoints. It does not need any effort to have them.
Isn't that a logical contradiction?

Spacecraft automatically has hardpoints/firmpoints at no cost, but hardpoints/firmpoints have a cost?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Condottiere » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:35 pm

Ever come to the conclusion that a game design mechanism may have outlived it's usefulness?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:03 pm

Hello AnotherDilbert
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:Firmpoints have a cost. This is no different than hardpoints having a cost. The cost of the firmpoint (or hardpoint) - is based on the mounting type (fixed, single, double, etc). There is no separate cost for "firmpoint or hardpoint", just the weapon and mounting type on it.
...


Finally, do firm/hardpoints have to be designated during construction.
Personal opinion: No
...
A ship has hardpoints. It does not need any effort to have them.
Isn't that a logical contradiction?

Spacecraft automatically has hardpoints/firmpoints at no cost, but hardpoints/firmpoints have a cost?
I think Nerhesi is saying that an empty hardpoint does not have a cost in MCr.
An empty firmpoint does not have a cost in MCr.
A hardpoint or firmpoint that has a fixed mount attached has a cost of MCr0.1.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:14 pm

Regarding firmpoints. I favor the rules only affecting weapons range and power consumption. Its simple and doesn't require you to remember much.

I don't think we need ships to mention firm points just because the ship is small. Only mention fixed mount or single turret if they're there. The size of a ship matters for a bunch of different rules so I don't think it would be much more work to remember that smallcraft have a shorter weapons range and stuff.

Anyways, I'm still trying to get read up on all the rules quickly.

New question. Some ship components give different numbers for life support. For instance, the luxury state room is 500 Cr per ton, and they are 10 tons, so 5000 Cr I'm guessing. Why does it cost more? Is it better food and scented candles? Can you save on life support costs if you keep it off? Barracks are also different. Barracks have life support of 250 Cr per ton and 2 tons per person, so 500 Cr per person? However, the core rulebook says that life support is 1000 per person. What about life support used for short periods of time, such as a passenger shuttle or troop transport? Do you pay only pay a fraction depending on how much time it was used? What if you suddenly needed to stuff a lot of people on a ship? Would life support quickly fail?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:44 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:Firmpoints have a cost. This is no different than hardpoints having a cost. The cost of the firmpoint (or hardpoint) - is based on the mounting type (fixed, single, double, etc). There is no separate cost for "firmpoint or hardpoint", just the weapon and mounting type on it.
...


Finally, do firm/hardpoints have to be designated during construction.
Personal opinion: No
...
A ship has hardpoints. It does not need any effort to have them.
Isn't that a logical contradiction?

Spacecraft automatically has hardpoints/firmpoints at no cost, but hardpoints/firmpoints have a cost?
I dont believe I said that. :)

It takes no effort/cost to have a hardpoint/firmpoint.
It does take effort/cost to place a weapon on a hardpoint/firmpoint.

Perhaps I a missing where RAW disagrees with this?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:54 pm

Condottiere wrote:Ever come to the conclusion that a game design mechanism may have outlived it's usefulness?
Several times on many different occasions Condottiere! :)

It was clarified to me that my mandate was not to go "Go and Design a traveller system!" It was most definitely updates to the existing system. I do count myself lucky in that I was to bring some clarity and balance to a system I enjoy.

If I was given a carte blanch to create/develop a space opera system, would the result be different? You can be 1000% sure of that. Everything from factoring in craft agility and making armour simply ablative rather than a threshold, to possibly changing m-drive to be inertia-less (just from a lore/science perspective), to adding in defensive shields (not just black globes), to standardizing TL modifications so that they can uniformly everything from a rifle to a spinal weapon, to simplifying dogfighting and missile rules, to doing away with weapon limitations (if you can power it, you can fire it), to slimmed down capital combat, etc etc etc...

Would it have still been traveller? Perhaps due to names of the empires and races, fuel-based jump-technology age of sail technology, careers and so on; but it would have been a much more significant departure from Mongoose Traveller. Maybe in the future I can totally scam Matt and Mark into that sort of agreement - but I had to start small - and I'm thankful for the opportunity :)

Sam W.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:13 pm

Nerhesi wrote:to adding in defensive shields (not just black globes)
Energy Shields are in the High Technology chapter.
Nerhesi wrote:to standardizing TL modifications so that they can uniformly everything from a rifle to a spinal weapon
As originally written they where more generic.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:33 pm

Nerhesi wrote:I dont believe I said that. :)

It takes no effort/cost to have a hardpoint/firmpoint.
It does take effort/cost to place a weapon on a hardpoint/firmpoint.

Perhaps I a missing where RAW disagrees with this?
OK, I understand, thank you. That is basically as I thought.


I think confusion have been spread by formulations like:
HG, p23. wrote:A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount...
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:29 am

The High Technology chapter should have been split up between equipment you may introduce, and equipment that doesn't fit into the Third Imperium.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:35 am

I recently read solar panels and I don't like it. It doesn't directly say how much power it produces. Couldn't it say it produces something like 1 unit of power per ton? It looks like it was copied and pasted from 1st edition of High Guard.

What if I wanted to make a solar power ship? Seriously. If you have both solar panels and collectors (from the high tech section), a ship could push the limit of how long a ship could go without resupplying. It could go deep into sectors without a reliable fuel source. I could see people designing such a ship just to see if they can make it work.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:56 am

Hello AmotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:I think confusion have been spread by formulations like:
HG, p23. wrote:A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount...
Yes, my confusion started with the partially quoted text above and the small craft examples which prompted my subject post of Small Craft firmpoint or fixed mount at viewforum.php?f=89.
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:59 am

I did some math. After some fiddling around, I found a 500 ton hull to worked for my purposes. At that ship size, the solar panels comes to 1 ton. Not using M-Drive or anything that is not basic ship systems, the ship uses 100 units of power. So 1 ton of solar panels covers 100 units of power?

When it said power plant, it didn't specify what kind. I decided to go with Fusion TL 12 since that seems to be the default for most ships.

However, I checked options for batteries and it seems that they are not well suited for storing enough power for a week in jump space. The power they store is measured in 10s of units and energy seems to be needed on a turn basis.

My work continues...
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:09 am

Hello DivineWrath,
DivineWrath wrote:I recently read solar panels and I don't like it. It doesn't directly say how much power it produces. Couldn't it say it produces something like 1 unit of power per ton? It looks like it was copied and pasted from 1st edition of High Guard.

What if I wanted to make a solar power ship? Seriously. If you have both solar panels and collectors (from the high tech section), a ship could push the limit of how long a ship could go without resupplying. It could go deep into sectors without a reliable fuel source. I could see people designing such a ship just to see if they can make it work.
The solar panel rules as written are for ships that are either keeping station or coasting at a very low acceleration rate. I believe that the ISS is a good example.

MT Referee's Manual 2- Power Supply p. 64 mount solar cells on a ship's hull, which I believe would be used for the suggested ship design above.

The TNE FF&S p. 65 Solar Arrays are two part systems which are rigidly, permanently installed solar collector panels that collect solar radiant energy and solar cells that convert the collected solar radiant energy to electrical power. The solar collector panels can be made retractable which doubles the price, volume, and mass.

I think that TNE is a closer match than MT for the MgT solar panels.

Update: I forgot to include that MT Referee's Manual p. 57 has one energy point (EP) equaling 250 MW.
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:20 pm

Morning PST all,

A bit off-topic the on-line magazine Freelance Traveller for November/December 2016 is out with a review of MgT HG 2e that I think is a positive one. Here is the link http://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby phavoc » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:34 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:Morning PST all,

A bit off-topic the on-line magazine Freelance Traveller for November/December 2016 is out with a review of MgT HG 2e that I think is a positive one. Here is the link http://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/
I have yet to see a review by Megan that is NOT positive or positively gushing. But she's a "featured" reviewer for DTRPG, not an actual purchaser.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:41 pm

Condottiere wrote:The High Technology chapter should have been split up between equipment you may introduce, and equipment that doesn't fit into the Third Imperium.
While I did not craft that chapter, the overwhelming impression with many of us was that it was a chapter of equipment that does not fit into 3I.

I think there have been further examples after HG2 that have challenged that (Collectors and Meson Bays) - it was a bit of surprise to me but you just roll with it I guess :)
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:55 pm

Hello phavoc,
phavoc wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:Morning PST all,

A bit off-topic the on-line magazine Freelance Traveller for November/December 2016 is out with a review of MgT HG 2e that I think is a positive one. Here is the link http://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/
I have yet to see a review by Megan that is NOT positive or positively gushing. But she's a "featured" reviewer for DTRPG, not an actual purchaser.
I admit to rarely reading product reviews so I do not know if the reviewer only says good things about a product. However, I have a copy and checked out her review.

Addressing the bit about Megan not purchasing a copy of MgT HG 2e to my knowledge many book reviewers do not purchase the books they review either, they get special copies sent to them by publishers. If Megan got a copy to review without cost that does not make her review any less valid than the individual getting a free copy of a book to review.

My apologies for going off-topic and think any further replies should not go any further on the subject of High Guard - Errors?
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