High Guard - Errors?

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DivineWrath
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High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:33 am

Hey all. I've been poking around the books lately. I figured it was time to check out 2nd edition, or at least the ships (I like the ship part of the game).

Anyways, in order to master the ship designing part of the game, I've been trying to analyze the sample ships the book provides. Unfortunately, I've spotted what I think are errors. For instance, the light fighter doesn't show the costs for its weapon, and the GIG has the wrong hull price. The Light Fighter should have 1.1 MCr for it weapon (which brings the final price to 9.09 MCr, not 9 MCr) and the GIG hull should costs 1.2 MCr after adding in streamlining.

Is there any place I should submit spotted errors? I've already made sure I had the latest version of High Guard 2nd edition before making this post.

Also, I'm a bit annoyed that not all ship software is not included in High Guard. I couldn't find the prices for jump software until I checked the core rulebook (I found it on p 151). I think this book should include everything.

On a side note, the core rulebook does mention more rules for trade in Merchant Prince. Is it talking about 1st edition, or are they referring to a 2nd edition in the works?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:39 am

DivineWrath wrote:Is there any place I should submit spotted errors? I've already made sure I had the latest version of High Guard 2nd edition before making this post.
Here is fine. Not all ship updates are in the latest PDF though.
DivineWrath wrote:Also, I'm a bit annoyed that not all ship software is not included in High Guard. I couldn't find the prices for jump software until I checked the core rulebook (I found it on p 151). I think this book should include everything.
Agreed.
DivineWrath wrote:On a side note, the core rulebook does mention more rules for trade in Merchant Prince. Is it talking about 1st edition, or are they referring to a 2nd edition in the works?
No current 2nd edition Merchant Prince, dunno if there will be one or not.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:31 pm

Here is half a dozen ships I've looked over. I tried to do my best to double check my results. I'll do more later.

Light Fighter
No price was given for weapon mount or weapon. Should be 1 MCr for the weapon, and 0.1 MCr for the fixed mount.
Final price should be MCr 9.09

GIG
Streamlined should increase the cost by 0.2, not 0.1
Does not mention operation time.
Bridge is too cheap. Minimum should be 0.5 MCr.
Price of Cabins is wrong. It should be 0.15 MCr, not 0.1 MCr.
If it is Streamlined, then why does it have fuel scoops? Shouldn't they be free with streamlining?
Final price doesn't add up correctly. Should be 7.272 MCr.
If you remove the fuel scoops, final price is then 6.327 MCr.

Launch
No problems.

Pebble
Final price is MCr 6.579, not 6.75
Hull is 25 tons, but only 23 tons is used.

Ship's Boat
Fixed Turret should be Fixed Turret (Empty).

SLOW BOAT
Fixed Turret should be Fixed Turret (Empty).
2.1 tons of space is unused.
Last edited by DivineWrath on Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:41 am

I finished off the rest of the small craft.

Fixed Mounts is a frequent problem. Should they be Fixed Mount or Fixed Mount (empty)?

PINNACE
Fixed Mount should be Fixed Mount (empty)
Final price should be 8.712 MCr.

SLOW PINNACE
Problem with M-Drive. Thrust does not match price and tonnage.
Problem with P-Plant. It does not say Fusion TL 8.
Fixed Mount should be Fixed Mount (empty).
Final price does not come close to MCr 7.227.

MODULAR CUTTER
1 ton of space unused.

HEAVY FIGHTER
No operation time given for fuel.
No mention of how many staterooms.
Price does not factor in the 10% discount. Should be 38.457 MCr, not 42.73 MCr.

TROOP TRANSPORT
Price for armor incorrect. Should be 0.480 MCr.
2 tons of space unused.
Ship price is wrong. Factor in the correct price for armor, price (before discount) comes to 40.98 MCr.
Price does not factor in the 10% discount. Should be 36.882 MCr.

Shuttle
Tonnage totals to 100, not 95 like the hull rating.
Final price is incorrect. It should be 15.147 MCr, not 15.167 MCr.

PASSENGER SHUTTLE
No problems detected.
Last edited by DivineWrath on Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:25 am

I have a little bit of confusion right now. Some small craft had used fixed mounts (empty), others had single turrets (empty), but then some weapons were mounted on firm points. No mention of fixed mounts or turrets. Price wise, some of those weapons were priced the same as they would be if they were used fixed mounts (example, firmpoint missile 0.85 = missile 0.75 + fixed mount 0.1). Anyone able to help sort me out?
AndrewW wrote:No current 2nd edition Merchant Prince, dunno if there will be one or not.
I'm keeping an eye out for it. Some of the rules it had, had some problems. I would like to have player run businesses to run better. Maybe I'll be around to help when it goes into development.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:11 pm

Hello DivineWrath,
DivineWrath wrote:I have a little bit of confusion right now. Some small craft had used fixed mounts (empty), others had single turrets (empty), but then some weapons were mounted on firm points. No mention of fixed mounts or turrets. Price wise, some of those weapons were priced the same as they would be if they were used fixed mounts (example, firmpoint missile 0.85 = missile 0.75 + fixed mount 0.1). Anyone able to help sort me out?
MgT HG 2e PDF downloaded 09/01/16 p. 23
"Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret.

A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint. A ship of 35-70 tons has two Firmpoints, and a ship of 70-99 tons has three Firmpoints. Beyond this size, ships use Hardpoints.

A weapon mounted upon a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it.
• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).
• Barbettes consume two Firmpoints."

Here is my understanding of the rules based on reviewing the small craft ship record sheets on pp. 99-106.

1. From the text above small craft use firmpoints, single turrets, or barbettes to carry weapons.
2. A firmpoint according to the text, the heavy fighter p. 102, and troop transport p. 104 is a fixed mount which accounts for the price of MCr0.1 that can mount one turret class weapon, does not take up any tonnage, 75% of whatever a weapon needs for power, and a weapon's full cost.
3. A single weapon turret appears to replace a firmpoint, requires 1 d-ton of hull space, 75% of whatever a weapon needs for power, the cost of the turret, and the cost of the weapon
4. A single barbette appears to replaces two firmpoints, requires 5 d-ton of space, 75% of whatever a weapon needs for power, and the cost of the weapon.
5. Leaving the Weapons block empty on the ship record ship appears to designate that a small craft will be able to install firmpoints, single weapon turrets, or barbette at a later.
6. Omitting the Weapons block means the small craft cannot be armed at a later.

Number of Weapons:
a. One turret class weapon per installed firmpoint for a maximum of three per small craft.
b. One single weapon turret for a maximum of three turrets per small craft.
c. One barbette per small craft hulls >= 35 d-tons < 100 d-tons.
d. One can mount a combination of firmpoints and single weapon turrets.
e. On hulls > 75 d-tons and < 100 d-tons one could also mount either a firmpoint or single weapon turret with a barbette.

Note that my understanding is a bit different from the discussions on the following threads:

viewtopic.php?p=911942#p911942
viewtopic.php?p=894836#p894836
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=117599

My opinion after checking through all of the ship record sheets pp. 94-216 is that the weapon annotations should be:
1. Change fixed mount to firmpoint
2. All weapon annotations would be formatted as Mount type (Empty or Weapon type): Firmpoint (Empty) or Firmpoint (Beam Laser)

Hopefully the above helps and that AndrewW or another moderator can provide a clarification for the installation of small craft weapons.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:15 pm

I noticed that I made some errors regarding Cabins. I made corrections to my previous posts. Lets pretend that I didn't make any mistake. ;)

I also recently noticed that High Guard does not list any Station designs. Did I miss something? For a book that includes rules for making stations, it offers no examples of them in practice.

@ snrdg121408

It seems that there isn't a simple answer for firm points then. I'll put off making an opinion on the matter till later. The remaining ships are too big to have firm points.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:29 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:Hopefully the above helps and that AndrewW or another moderator can provide a clarification for the installation of small craft weapons.
Prior to publication I did mention a number of things that wheren't clear in relation to small craft weapons, alas only some of it got clarified.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:31 pm

DivineWrath wrote:I also recently noticed that High Guard does not list any Station designs. Did I miss something? For a book that includes rules for making stations, it offers no examples of them in practice.
No you didn't miss anything. Was an executive decision not to include any sample stations. The prior Space Stations book does have some, though of course with the earlier rules.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:56 pm

AndrewW wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:Hopefully the above helps and that AndrewW or another moderator can provide a clarification for the installation of small craft weapons.
Prior to publication I did mention a number of things that wheren't clear in relation to small craft weapons, alas only some of it got clarified.
We went through several iterations on small-craft weapons. I see some of the examples provided creating some confusion (because they're not indicating whether a firmpoint is a turret or a fixed mount) - but otherwise, the small craft weapon rules seem pretty clear, they are:

You can mount a single turret per firm point.
You can mount a single fixed-mount weapon per firm point.
You can mount a barbette per 2 firm points.

Modify Range and power consumption.

What is still outstanding?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:07 pm

snrdg121408 wrote: Here is my understanding of the rules based on reviewing the small craft ship record sheets on pp. 99-106.

1. From the text above small craft use firmpoints, single turrets, or barbettes to carry weapons.
2. A firmpoint according to the text, the heavy fighter p. 102, and troop transport p. 104 is a fixed mount which accounts for the price of MCr0.1 that can mount one turret class weapon, does not take up any tonnage, 75% of whatever a weapon needs for power, and a weapon's full cost.
3. A single weapon turret appears to replace a firmpoint, requires 1 d-ton of hull space, 75% of whatever a weapon needs for power, the cost of the turret, and the cost of the weapon
4. A single barbette appears to replaces two firmpoints, requires 5 d-ton of space, 75% of whatever a weapon needs for power, and the cost of the weapon.
I'm not finding anything wrong with the above statements. I'm apprehensive about #2 because I am confused by the creators intent possibly - maybe just me
snrdg121408 wrote: 5. Leaving the Weapons block empty on the ship record ship appears to designate that a small craft will be able to install firmpoints, single weapon turrets, or barbette at a later.
6. Omitting the Weapons block means the small craft cannot be armed at a later.
I cannot comment on that nor would I be sure we can rule on it. Simply omitting something from a record sheet does not indicate as to whether modification is allowed or not. Again - I would leave this up to common sense. Perhaps future errata can rule as to whether this should be fixed or not.
snrdg121408 wrote: Hopefully the above helps and that AndrewW or another moderator can provide a clarification for the installation of small craft weapons.
So apart from questions 5 and 6, what clarity is required? I think you've done well identifying RAW here by indicating what can be mounted on a firmpoint, and how it is modified when this happens.

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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:17 pm

I doubt we're missing much with station designs.

But I'll assume that somewhere down the line a nice glossy supplement will be published with more elaborate options, and how they fit in with the interstellar ecosystem.

As regards to firmpoints, I understand the intent and the text, but I suspect that adding an example design and a table for smallcraft weaponry might have helped.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:42 pm

You're probably right Condottiere - that would have helped. Lesson Learned.

I'm a bit concerned regarding ship designs causing a bit more confusion. This happened in the previous conversation (before I took a break) regarding ships having Meson bays despite Meson bays being high-tech or annic nova style ships with "collectors" and so on.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:46 pm

Hello Nerhesi,
Nerhesi wrote:
AndrewW wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:Hopefully the above helps and that AndrewW or another moderator can provide a clarification for the installation of small craft weapons.
Prior to publication I did mention a number of things that wheren't clear in relation to small craft weapons, alas only some of it got clarified.
We went through several iterations on small-craft weapons. I see some of the examples provided creating some confusion (because they're not indicating whether a firmpoint is a turret or a fixed mount) - but otherwise, the small craft weapon rules seem pretty clear, they are:

You can mount a single turret per firm point.
You can mount a single fixed-mount weapon per firm point.
You can mount a barbette per 2 firm points.

Modify Range and power consumption.

What is still outstanding?
The examples with the Weapon block entry of Fixed Mount cost MCr0.1
Light Fighter: Fixed mount (Pulse Laser) no cost, however based on the empty fixed mounts cost should be Fixed Mount MCr0.1 + Pulse Laser MCr1.0 = MCr1.1
Gig: Single Turret (empty) cost MCr0.2
Heavy Fighter: Firmpoint #1 (Beam Laser) MCr0.6 - Beam Laser MCr0.5 = MCr0.1
Heavy Fighter: Firmpoint #2 (Missile Rack) MCr0.85 - Missile Rack MCr0.75 = MCr0.1
Troop Transport: Firmpoint (Sandcaster) MCr0.35 - Sandcaster MCr0.25 = MCr0.1
Troop Transport: Firmpoint (Missile Rack) MCr0.85 - Missile Rack MCr0.75 = MCr0.1

1. Do firmpoints cost MCr0.1 as shown in the heavy fighter and troop transport?

2. What is definition for "upgrade" in the text "A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."?

My experience both as a Sonar Technician Submarines and a Computer Support Technician with "upgrading" has been replacing one component with a new or different component. In computers an upgrade includes software too.

3. Why do seven small craft examples use fixed mount instead of firmpoint per the text in Item 2?

4. Why does the cost of the empty single turret only MCr0.2 when weapons mounted on firmpoints has the weapon cost + MCr0.1.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Nerhesi » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:20 pm

Of course my browser would crash as I'm 80% done my post. Hello again snrdg.

First off, let me apologise on behalf of the team for what seems to be confusion through examples. I think with any endeavour this big it is expected, especially when you have multiple resources working on different areas. I did not personalyl create any of the designs in the book, but was responsible for a large portion of the ruleset. To answer your questions, I've come up with some straight forward points:

1) As per RAW. All smallcraft mount weapons on Firmpoints. Everything on a smallcraft is a firmpoint. This is clearly articulated on page 24, in the first line under "Smallcraft" in the Number of Weapons section.
2) A firmpoint starts off as a fixed mount. That is the default weapon type. It can be "upgraded" to a single turret - which to my knowledge, only gives you a benefit if you're losing a dog-fight. Two firmpoints can be upgraded to a barbette even!
3) As firmpoints, the weapon range and power consumption is affected. That is it.. The weapons should cost the same and so on. There is nothing special about firmpoints and cost. So a firmpoint particle barbette costs the same as a particle barbette mounted on a 5000-ton craft. A firmpoint single turret would be the same cost as the same single turret on any other craft.

As to why several examples may not adhere to this, or causing confusion, well hopefully Matt still has time to keep updating and making changes for these corrections - he has been pretty good thus far :)
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:21 pm

Nerhesi wrote:First off, let me apologise on behalf of the team for what seems to be confusion through examples.
I may have contributed to the confusion, sorry.

Based on the rules for hardpoints and historical precedent I consider hardpoints and hence firmpoints to be separate components.

So, in my interpretation, you need three components to mount a weapon on a small craft:
1) A firmpoint, no cost or tonnage, can be left empty (no weapon mount need be installed initially).
2) A weapon mount such as a fixed mount or turret, cost according to Mount table on p24.
3) A weapon. Properties according to the Turret Weapons table on p25, modified as per p23.

I think you are saying that I am wrong:
Nerhesi wrote:2) A firmpoint starts off as a fixed mount.
Does this mean that you cannot have a firmpoint without installing a weapon mount such as fixed mount or turret to it?

Note that in such case the Launch on p96 is possibly incorrect: It has a firmpoint according to p23 "A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint", yet is has no weapon mount (fixed mount or turret) installed.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:40 pm

Hello again Nerhesi,

First off thank you and everyone involved in putting together HG 2e and I really like the product even if I seem to be having issues with matching what the examples show with the design system text.
Nerhesi wrote:Of course my browser would crash as I'm 80% done my post. Hello again snrdg.
Web gremlins or Murphy's law at work once again
First off, let me apologise on behalf of the team for what seems to be confusion through examples. I think with any endeavour this big it is expected, especially when you have multiple resources working on different areas. I did not personalyl create any of the designs in the book, but was responsible for a large portion of the ruleset.


I do understand that putting something together as complex as MgT using multiple resources and people to check out the rule set will trip up some people who check the rules against any examples in the product. Again thank you and those who put MgT HG 2e together for your work.
To answer your questions, I've come up with some straight forward points:

1) As per RAW. All smallcraft mount weapons on Firmpoints. Everything on a smallcraft is a firmpoint. This is clearly articulated on page 24, in the first line under "Smallcraft" in the Number of Weapons section.
2) A firmpoint starts off as a fixed mount. That is the default weapon type. It can be "upgraded" to a single turret - which to my knowledge, only gives you a benefit if you're losing a dog-fight. Two firmpoints can be upgraded to a barbette even!
3) As firmpoints, the weapon range and power consumption is affected. That is it.. The weapons should cost the same and so on. There is nothing special about firmpoints and cost. So a firmpoint particle barbette costs the same as a particle barbette mounted on a 5000-ton craft. A firmpoint single turret would be the same cost as the same single turret on any other craft.

As to why several examples may not adhere to this, or causing confusion, well hopefully Matt still has time to keep updating and making changes for these corrections - he has been pretty good thus far :)
Thank you very much for clearing up that a single turret (empty) or barbette has the same cost as listed on appropriate weapon system table.

My remaining puzzles are:

Do firmpoints and hardpoints need to be designated during construction?

Are the seven small craft hulls with fixed mount annotations really firmpoints?

Okay, I'm still a bit fuzzy on if firmpoint's have a cost. I think the answer is no.

UPDATE 11/07/16 0557 PST
After a good nights sleep and every ones help I may have finally figured out how to install armament on small craft.

Firmpoint: 0 d-tons, Cost MCr0.1, Cost of Weapon installed; Single Turret: 1 d-ton, Cost MCr0.2, Cost of Weapon installed;and Barbette: 5 d-tons, Cost varies per weapon used

Number of Weapons: Up to three Firmpoints with one turret class weapon per firmpoint; Up to three single turrets with one turret class weapon per turret; and one barbette with the option to install one firmpoint or single turret.

Does the above appear to be on track?
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:04 pm

Hell again AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:First off, let me apologise on behalf of the team for what seems to be confusion through examples.
I may have contributed to the confusion, sorry.

Based on the rules for hardpoints and historical precedent I consider hardpoints and hence firmpoints to be separate components.

So, in my interpretation, you need three components to mount a weapon on a small craft:
1) A firmpoint, no cost or tonnage, can be left empty (no weapon mount need be installed initially).
2) A weapon mount such as a fixed mount or turret, cost according to Mount table on p24.
3) A weapon. Properties according to the Turret Weapons table on p25, modified as per p23.

I think you are saying that I am wrong:
Nerhesi wrote:2) A firmpoint starts off as a fixed mount.
Does this mean that you cannot have a firmpoint without installing a weapon mount such as fixed mount or turret to it?

Note that in such case the Launch on p96 is possibly incorrect: It has a firmpoint according to p23 "A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint", yet is has no weapon mount (fixed mount or turret) installed.
Thank you for bring up the Launch because in my PDF HG 2e copy the ship record sheet's Weapons block is blank.

I've checked on DriveThruRPG which shows my copy of HG 2e and the other bits are supposedly up to date.

Has then been an update for the ships and how can I get them if there are updates?
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:22 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:I've checked on DriveThruRPG which shows my copy of HG 2e and the other bits are supposedly up to date.
I have the 2016-09-01 version, which is the latest I can see on DriveThruRPG.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:07 am

snrdg121408 wrote:Has then been an update for the ships and how can I get them if there are updates?
There hasn't been anything released since the PDF that is available on DriveThruRPG. Some ships have been adjusted since then, but currently the PDF there is the latest available. And has already gone to print so everything might not make it into the print version. There likely wont be any further updates till next year.

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