Colony ship

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Reynard
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Reynard » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:53 pm

I'm sure Grandfather made maneuver and jump a reality as a hobby. He is a super genius.

The jumps in technology may take a few decades as seen on our Earth yet we look back on what was accomplished in relatively little time and think it's a natural course. We didn't rush to get colonies all over the solar system just because it was minimally feasible. If we, along the way, had discovered maneuver drive technology and the supporting grav tech with all the advantages entailed, we would be mining the asteroids and gas giants and enjoying vacations on other nearby worlds because it would be easy. Same with interstellar colonization and exploitation. Generational STL ships make it possible but not practical let alone cheap by any means. Maneuver would let a civilization capitalize on its systems resources but interstellar journies would still be a dream. Time goes by and Jump is discovered and there's no limit including exploration and possible colonization if there is reason to colonize. In the Traveller universe, I would say space civilization is always hallmarked with the jump drive.

I'd also say specialized colony ships would find repeated use as they go on to drop off the next colony on world after world.
Last edited by Reynard on Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:44 pm

Reynard wrote:I'm sure Grandfather had maneuver and jump a reality as a hobby. He is a super genius.

The jumps in technology may take a few decades as seen on our Earth yet we look back on what was accomplished in relatively little time and think it's a natural course. We didn't rush to get colonies all over the solar system just because it was minimally feasible. If we, along the way, had discovered maneuver drive technology and the supporting grav tech with all the advantages entailed, we would be mining the asteroids and gas giants and enjoying vacations on other nearby worlds because it would be easy. Same with interstellar colonization and exploitation. Generational STL ships make it possible but not practical let alone cheap by any means. Maneuver would let a civilization capitalize on its systems resources but interstellar journies would still be a dream. Time goes by and Jump is discovered and there's no limit including exploration and possible colonization if there is reason to colonize. In the Traveller universe, I would say space civilization is always hallmarked with the jump drive.

I'd also say specialized colony ships would find repeated use as they go on to drop off the next colony on world after world.
According to the Traveller timeline, the jump Drive was discovered in the mid 21st century, that kind of prevented us from doing tings like terraforming Mars or building O'Neill Colonies. A more realistic timeline would have us spend centuries colonizing our own Solar System, and then we invent the Jump Drive.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby -Daniel- » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:11 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote: According to the Traveller timeline, the jump Drive was discovered in the mid 21st century, that kind of prevented us from doing tings like terraforming Mars or building O'Neill Colonies. A more realistic timeline would have us spend centuries colonizing our own Solar System, and then we invent the Jump Drive.
Why does it require us to have lots of colonies in our system in order for jump drive invention to be realistic?
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:48 pm

-Daniel- wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote: According to the Traveller timeline, the jump Drive was discovered in the mid 21st century, that kind of prevented us from doing tings like terraforming Mars or building O'Neill Colonies. A more realistic timeline would have us spend centuries colonizing our own Solar System, and then we invent the Jump Drive.
Why does it require us to have lots of colonies in our system in order for jump drive invention to be realistic?
It short circuits a whole era of interplanetary colonization, its kind of like having Christopher Columbus building a rocket ship and going to the Moon instead of discovering America.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby crazy_cat » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:39 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:*snip* ...its kind of like having Christopher Columbus building a rocket ship and going to the Moon instead of discovering America.
Which is a bad thing (in a game of what if and making stuff up) because?
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Reynard » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:19 pm

"It short circuits a whole era of interplanetary colonization,"

The advent of a highly efficient STL drive with the parallel development of other gravitic technology whether or not jump comes sooner or later, would push exploiting resources and exploration at your doorstep. Jump in no way would negate the need to use what is so readily available. As a matter of fact, there would be even greater need for resources to explore and expand beyond the home system. Your first colonies are not going to independently build themselves and a colony isn't going to be assessed, planned and built to a serviceable level for a long time. It's not a few log cabins and dirt paths as in our past.

In some ways I see Colony ships being modular so they can be efficiently and economically be reconfigured depending on the stage of colonization from transport of crews and equipment for initial development of a work colony to construction of the basic colony facilities that use other equipment and supplies (and crews) to the actual colonists and their needs for perform their tasks and careers. Obviously what I describe here isn't your low population settlements but a full scale working community starting in the tens to maybe a hundred thousand residents. When colonization stops for any reason, the ships can become freighters and/or people movers also necessary for the early development of a colony. I can see these large vessels typically equipped with shuttles for the large payloads since highports will be a dream for some time.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:10 am

The tenth season of the Expanse.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:40 am

The Solar System of Traveller is relatively undeveloped, particularly the outer Solar System because the jump Drive came so soon. As a result of the Jump Drive appearing in the mid to late 21st century, the Planet Mars was not terraformed, people had no incentive to terraform planets, since they could find planets that were already inhabitable. I would just like a little more history that's all. the Terran SYstem in Earth/Terra centric. Mars is a relative backwater, and the Moon is an adjunct to Earth.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Reynard » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:45 am

I'm not sure where you got your Terran history from. So far I found a passage in my old Solomani & Aslan book saying Mars wasn't fully terraformed until around 400 Imperial calendar or 4800 terran but it was colonized near the beginning of Terran space history.. That says it took that long to reach a tech level to perform major terraforming (about TL 12, TL 15 for complex terraforming). Venus was not terraformed. Many moons in the system and the asteroid belt have bases and installations of all types. The jump drive was developed at a research installation in the belt. As a matter of fact, I see a note in the timeline that by AD 2058, there are already bases throughout the solar system and Terra discovers Jump by AD 2087 29 years later so Jump had no effect on the extensive development of the solar system. First inhabitable planet they explored in AD 2094 was Barnard's Star along with the Vilani living there. It was lucky the terran system was already highly exploited to fuel the upcoming war. I doubt we were colonizing during a war but expanded by conquest.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby -Daniel- » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:55 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:The Solar System of Traveller is relatively undeveloped, particularly the outer Solar System because the jump Drive came so soon. As a result of the Jump Drive appearing in the mid to late 21st century, the Planet Mars was not terraformed, people had no incentive to terraform planets, since they could find planets that were already inhabitable. I would just like a little more history that's all. the Terran SYstem in Earth/Terra centric. Mars is a relative backwater, and the Moon is an adjunct to Earth.
I don't think there is anything wrong with you wanting something. I just found it interesting that you believe your view makes it more realistic. Regardless of when and why, I am sure the earth system was/is exploited. There is not reason to think it wasn't. But that is not linked to jump drive development per say. Using the resources would happen either way. :D
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:11 pm

Path of least resistance.

The only reason for an early colonization of the inner planets or the asteroid belt is for purposes of economic exploitation, because I count at least three factors that would influence permanent settlement, water, atmosphere and gravity.

You'll want a lot of water so that settlements are independent.

A breathable atmosphere so you aren't stuck under a dome, and don't need to invest in that infrastructure.

And gravity varying between eighty to one twenty percent of standard gravity, for both comfort and health reasons.

So once it's possible to colonize planets that fit that criteria, Mars or Europa are likely going to become penal colonies, or third choice at best.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:49 am

What would you imagine the year 5628 AD being like if there was no FTL? What happens if we take this timeline and assume that by 2087 the Jump Drive was not invented, lets us further suppose that the Ancients didn't invent the Jump Drive either, the Vilani didn't have a jump drive, nor did the Zhodani or the Aslan. In this Universe, there is no First Imperium, no Second Imperium, the Interstellar Wars don't happen, there is no Third Imperium. Without the Jump Drive, Interstellar Nations can't happen, but lets suppose all the rest of Traveller tech is there, there are grav vehicles, black globes, nuclear dampers, maneuver drives, artificial gravity and all the rest. Lets take all the standard starships, and just yank out the jump drives, leave the jump fuel, which then feeds into the power plants and maneuver drives. The space which was the Jump drives becomes cargo space for low berths. I think in this Universe, the Terra System becomes more highly developed. You have a terraformed Venus and Mars with populations in the billions. The asteroid belt is studded with O'Neill Colonies. the Moon is covered with domed craters with lakes in the center.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby -Daniel- » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:27 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:What would you imagine the year 5628 AD being like if there was no FTL? What happens if we take this timeline and assume that by 2087 the Jump Drive was not invented, lets us further suppose that the Ancients didn't invent the Jump Drive either, the Vilani didn't have a jump drive, nor did the Zhodani or the Aslan. In this Universe, there is no First Imperium, no Second Imperium, the Interstellar Wars don't happen, there is no Third Imperium. Without the Jump Drive, Interstellar Nations can't happen, but lets suppose all the rest of Traveller tech is there, there are grav vehicles, black globes, nuclear dampers, maneuver drives, artificial gravity and all the rest. Lets take all the standard starships, and just yank out the jump drives, leave the jump fuel, which then feeds into the power plants and maneuver drives. The space which was the Jump drives becomes cargo space for low berths. I think in this Universe, the Terra System becomes more highly developed. You have a terraformed Venus and Mars with populations in the billions. The asteroid belt is studded with O'Neill Colonies. the Moon is covered with domed craters with lakes in the center.
Or the system is quiet and humanity is just a memory because we have destroyed ourselves. :lol:

I think you can write what ever history you wish when you move out more than 3000 years. Just look how much has changed in reality over the last 100 years. The possible range of outcomes is just infinite.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Reynard » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:06 pm

From the past writing in each edition of Traveller, Earth has hit those levels of technology and the development of the solar system. As I said above, it took some time for Mars to be terraformed probably when the actual science was there but Venus wasn't, too far gone. The other bodies and locations have also been extensively invented and exploited. This even with Jump and other systems to use. I'd say our development of our solar system is stymied because we don't have the right tech to efficiently explore and exploit. Look how it takes YEARS to go anywhere. Not great incentive.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Reynard » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:10 pm

For a source to understand colonization in Traveller, try 2300'ADs Tools for Frontier Living which extensively describes creating colonies and outposts. Not in the same universe but good inspiration for how and why colonies are set up and develop.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Reynard » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:16 pm

With this thread in mind, I've been creating a subsector as a colonization experiment using 2300's Tools for Frontier Living supplement for it's colony design rules to add world features used to determine colony suitability. A slighter more hard science edge. The Traveller universe would be a lonelier place or more worlds featuring outposts for very specialized functions with very small populations. Without a majority of worlds hosting some sort of starport, links of commercial travel and communication would also be limited. It's not that you would not have colonies but the interstellar community would be far different.
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Re: Colony ship

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:58 pm

-Daniel- wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:What would you imagine the year 5628 AD being like if there was no FTL? What happens if we take this timeline and assume that by 2087 the Jump Drive was not invented, lets us further suppose that the Ancients didn't invent the Jump Drive either, the Vilani didn't have a jump drive, nor did the Zhodani or the Aslan. In this Universe, there is no First Imperium, no Second Imperium, the Interstellar Wars don't happen, there is no Third Imperium. Without the Jump Drive, Interstellar Nations can't happen, but lets suppose all the rest of Traveller tech is there, there are grav vehicles, black globes, nuclear dampers, maneuver drives, artificial gravity and all the rest. Lets take all the standard starships, and just yank out the jump drives, leave the jump fuel, which then feeds into the power plants and maneuver drives. The space which was the Jump drives becomes cargo space for low berths. I think in this Universe, the Terra System becomes more highly developed. You have a terraformed Venus and Mars with populations in the billions. The asteroid belt is studded with O'Neill Colonies. the Moon is covered with domed craters with lakes in the center.
Or the system is quiet and humanity is just a memory because we have destroyed ourselves. :lol:

I think you can write what ever history you wish when you move out more than 3000 years. Just look how much has changed in reality over the last 100 years. The possible range of outcomes is just infinite.
Hence a reason to build a sleeper ship, who's purpose is not only to travel in space but to travel in time as well. it travels in space so it can't be tracked and interfered with while traveling forward in time. The simplest form of one way time travel is a low berth chamber. Now the sleeper ship escapes into interstellar space, and does a series of random maneuvers so that no one knows precisely where it is, and it might eventually make its way to a planet of its choice coming from some unknown direction.

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