Page 2 of 2

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:22 am
by Spenser
Overall it’s an interesting question, and in the truest Traveller Fan sense we all start breaking it down into little bits an pieces and critiquing those. Overall, I’d say “whatever you think you and your players might enjoy, have at it. It’s a game, meant to be enjoyed.”

Devotion to what others say “should” be might not exactly make fun take off like a rocketship at your table. Just saying.

But to be a little bit realistic, you have to answer some questions, as peeps have put forth.

Traveller version of a Paladin? Sure, why not? As others have touched on… monastic or chivalric order who sees “doing good” in the name/frame of some divinity and is somehow granted “powers” to do so, a type of crusader adorned in suitable armor, proficient in fighting and in the frame of mind for advancing his sponsoring divinity’s agenda? Sounds interesting, why not run it past players and see how it goes?

About “strange” armor… I’m pretty sure there are lower TL places dealing in the kinds of armor we all think of when we imagine a paladin, so that’s not so strange. Is it a match for a gauss rifle? Well, medieval armor from Europe sure wouldn’t be, but is that what we’re talking about? And btw, is that what we were talking about with D&D armor in the first place\? My history isn’t amazing but I don’t recall much mithril weave armor in Saxony.

Are you talking about a paladin order evolving in the Traveller setting, complete with powers? Okay, gotta explain that, though. Traveller has always been very light on religion-ish stuff, and clearly lots of fans don’t see it as having a place in the setting except as a kooky cult backdrop. This of course should mean eff-all all your gaming table. Again, do what you want. I for one think religion and religious themes, tensions, effects on culture, and so on can add a great deal to the setting. As for people who say some variant of divine power “couldn’t work” in Traveller, I’d refer to all sorts of convos about what RPGs are, what’s important, and how plenty in the Traveller universe is fanciful to begin with. Use the mechanics meant for psionic and rebrand them for your order, or develop something new that seems to fit.

The idea of your paladin being gated-in somehow is also very interesting to me. Maybe some of the powers “work” based on some psionic analog, but others are very very weak until the paladin builds up a following for the relevant divinity in your Traveller Universe, and as that grows so do his powers.

Also, a person with powers draws attention of course. In the Traveller universe, how does someone who heals, detects ‘evil,” calls flame strikes or whatever deal with Naval Intelligence or that special section of IMoJ when they come knocking?

Now that I’m thinking about it, you could do an interesting campaign in Traveller based on the idea sort of lifted/jacked from Shadowrun setting history: what if ( divine ) magic of a sort just started working in the Traveller universe, for some reason? Maybe just in one system, or group of systems to start. What if cultures that have a sort of spiritual tradition now have actual, developing power? How does the local govt or the Imperial powers react to this? First there’d no doubt be lots of “this isn’t possible, it must be something else” conversation, but the evidence would mount. How would that affect things in your Traveller Universe?

A campaign like this would need some fairly serious groundwork, probably. But it’d be interesting stuff.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:42 am
by AnotherDilbert
Condottiere wrote:2. Such paradoxical genre crossovers may cause your campaign to jump the shark, if you actually use fantasy archetypes.
Yes, absolutely, it is completely absurd, but might be funny for awhile.

Don't do this in a campaign environment you intend to keep using...

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:20 am
by alex_greene
"Grail" and "A Late Delivery from Avalon" spring to mind. "Due South," too, in some ways. Oh, and the whole of Farscape. Not to mention Quantum Leap.

Now, to change stance, which since I am a chaotician I allow myself this on occasion and at random, how to explain the presence of such an outlandish and Quixotic persona in a cynical universe ...

Nothing in Traveller is without a reason. Some consciousness, some sort of sophont, needed to haul this person out of his reality and into this one, disconnected from his church and his community. And they had to do it for a reason - something that this person has, which is desperately needed in some place, for some reason.

What is that reason? It is not the Paladin's god, because that church and its interests should only exist in that universe. Not to be lawful, because cops operate everywhere in the TU, at every level. Not to heal people or use powers, because modern med tech surpasses anything the Paladin can bring to bear. Certainly not to fight - because the abducting entity could just become a Patron and hire some people in this universe.

Just try and work out what, exactly, would prompt some being to extract someone from their world into one there they do not belong and are not, apparently, needed. And then you will find your answer.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:17 pm
by Tom Kalbfus
alex_greene wrote:"Grail" and "A Late Delivery from Avalon" spring to mind. "Due South," too, in some ways. Oh, and the whole of Farscape. Not to mention Quantum Leap.

Now, to change stance, which since I am a chaotician I allow myself this on occasion and at random, how to explain the presence of such an outlandish and Quixotic persona in a cynical universe ...

Nothing in Traveller is without a reason. Some consciousness, some sort of sophont, needed to haul this person out of his reality and into this one, disconnected from his church and his community. And they had to do it for a reason - something that this person has, which is desperately needed in some place, for some reason.

What is that reason? It is not the Paladin's god, because that church and its interests should only exist in that universe. Not to be lawful, because cops operate everywhere in the TU, at every level. Not to heal people or use powers, because modern med tech surpasses anything the Paladin can bring to bear. Certainly not to fight - because the abducting entity could just become a Patron and hire some people in this universe.

Just try and work out what, exactly, would prompt some being to extract someone from their world into one there they do not belong and are not, apparently, needed. And then you will find your answer.
The Traveller Universe has nothing that can "detect evil" I believe there is an impending assassination attempt on Emperor Strephon, I would use the more expansive definition of a paladin's detect evil ability, that is one that is not limited to just devils and demons, but one which can detect evil intent. Now if someone is planning on doing something evil, the paladin can detect that person, he doesn't know what he is planning, but he knows to keep an eye on that person. Also the Paladin's code won't allow him to attack the person he detected as evil until his plot becomes obvious, or enough evidence is gathered to determine what he intends to do, so he can be stopped. The Paladin could save the Emperor's life if his detect evil ability was used in the right way. So this might give you an idea about who might bring him over, someone who is trying to protect the Emperor.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:49 pm
by Spenser
As I've said, I'm all for trying this, and anything you and your players are interesting. But what you've just written brings up an interesting point - although in DnD it's easy to tell good from evil just by reading alignments, in Traveller and specifically in the case you cite... I'd say not so much. If you're going by what MegaTraveller lays down.

--- Spoilers for the MegaTraveller line and the 1116 timeline ahead ---

In the timeline, was Dulinor evil when he committed the assassination? Killing the other peeps in the room and arranging to have Lucan and Varion killed was probably more easily called "evil," but the assassination of Strephon... I wonder. Clearly he thought he was acting in the best interest of his people, and the Imperium. At least as the scene was written. No doubt he went full-psycho later, but evil in the assassination? Hmmmmmm.

All of this being said, still an interesting idea. But the detect evil thing is a tough nut to crack in a whole world where that isn't really spelled out. Lots of gray in Traveller.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:07 pm
by -Daniel-
Side note, if you want to see some interesting mixing of Fantasy feel with Sci-Fi setting there is a game called Fading Suns that has lots of that feel to it.

Image

Image

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:40 pm
by Tom Kalbfus
Spenser wrote:As I've said, I'm all for trying this, and anything you and your players are interesting. But what you've just written brings up an interesting point - although in DnD it's easy to tell good from evil just by reading alignments, in Traveller and specifically in the case you cite... I'd say not so much. If you're going by what MegaTraveller lays down.

--- Spoilers for the MegaTraveller line and the 1116 timeline ahead ---

In the timeline, was Dulinor evil when he committed the assassination? Killing the other peeps in the room and arranging to have Lucan and Varion killed was probably more easily called "evil," but the assassination of Strephon... I wonder. Clearly he thought he was acting in the best interest of his people, and the Imperium. At least as the scene was written. No doubt he went full-psycho later, but evil in the assassination? Hmmmmmm.

All of this being said, still an interesting idea. But the detect evil thing is a tough nut to crack in a whole world where that isn't really spelled out. Lots of gray in Traveller.
What if the person who brought the Paladin over was from the future or more precisely future that resulted from Emperor Strephron being assassinated, lets say the New Era precisely, this person has gotten a hold of a time machine, and has travelled back in time to help prevent this assassination, but unfortunately the records of the New Era are very limited and incomplete wit the collapse of civilization and all, but an Ancient device with the ability, though limited to travel back in time and to reach out to other parallel universes falls into this guy's possession, he travels to the Paladin's world, and since the protagonist come from a primitive world himself, he is able to blend in with the locals there. In this world there is magic, he finds a Paladin, an arranges his transportation to a time and place specific to the assassination of Emperor Strephon.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:00 pm
by Spenser
"Hello, primitive stranger from a different dimension. I am also primitive, albeit with access to wondrous devices. Would you care to accompany me to my world and help me right a tremendous wrong?"

"Surely. Let me grab my bastard sword. May I bring my noble mount EquiFortis?"

"Um, no. Just you. And that glowing sword."

d[ o_0 ]b

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:07 pm
by -Daniel-
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Spenser wrote:As I've said, I'm all for trying this, and anything you and your players are interesting. But what you've just written brings up an interesting point - although in DnD it's easy to tell good from evil just by reading alignments, in Traveller and specifically in the case you cite... I'd say not so much. If you're going by what MegaTraveller lays down.

--- Spoilers for the MegaTraveller line and the 1116 timeline ahead ---

In the timeline, was Dulinor evil when he committed the assassination? Killing the other peeps in the room and arranging to have Lucan and Varion killed was probably more easily called "evil," but the assassination of Strephon... I wonder. Clearly he thought he was acting in the best interest of his people, and the Imperium. At least as the scene was written. No doubt he went full-psycho later, but evil in the assassination? Hmmmmmm.

All of this being said, still an interesting idea. But the detect evil thing is a tough nut to crack in a whole world where that isn't really spelled out. Lots of gray in Traveller.
What if the person who brought the Paladin over was from the future or more precisely future that resulted from Emperor Strephron being assassinated, lets say the New Era precisely, this person has gotten a hold of a time machine, and has travelled back in time to help prevent this assassination, but unfortunately the records of the New Era are very limited and incomplete wit the collapse of civilization and all, but an Ancient device with the ability, though limited to travel back in time and to reach out to other parallel universes falls into this guy's possession, he travels to the Paladin's world, and since the protagonist come from a primitive world himself, he is able to blend in with the locals there. In this world there is magic, he finds a Paladin, an arranges his transportation to a time and place specific to the assassination of Emperor Strephon.
So there are no Body Guards capable of protecting the Emperor in the time he is in, they need to pull a guy from an alternate universe just to be a bodyguard?

This is starting to feel very convoluted and unnecessarily complex. I would say if you want to port a Paladin over, do so. If you just want to have a religious order that seems to be like Paladins then do it. But either way, I would not waste my time trying to justify it with convoluted story arcs. Keep it simple and let the adventure begin. :D

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:16 pm
by Tom Kalbfus
-Daniel- wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Spenser wrote:As I've said, I'm all for trying this, and anything you and your players are interesting. But what you've just written brings up an interesting point - although in DnD it's easy to tell good from evil just by reading alignments, in Traveller and specifically in the case you cite... I'd say not so much. If you're going by what MegaTraveller lays down.

--- Spoilers for the MegaTraveller line and the 1116 timeline ahead ---

In the timeline, was Dulinor evil when he committed the assassination? Killing the other peeps in the room and arranging to have Lucan and Varion killed was probably more easily called "evil," but the assassination of Strephon... I wonder. Clearly he thought he was acting in the best interest of his people, and the Imperium. At least as the scene was written. No doubt he went full-psycho later, but evil in the assassination? Hmmmmmm.

All of this being said, still an interesting idea. But the detect evil thing is a tough nut to crack in a whole world where that isn't really spelled out. Lots of gray in Traveller.
What if the person who brought the Paladin over was from the future or more precisely future that resulted from Emperor Strephron being assassinated, lets say the New Era precisely, this person has gotten a hold of a time machine, and has travelled back in time to help prevent this assassination, but unfortunately the records of the New Era are very limited and incomplete wit the collapse of civilization and all, but an Ancient device with the ability, though limited to travel back in time and to reach out to other parallel universes falls into this guy's possession, he travels to the Paladin's world, and since the protagonist come from a primitive world himself, he is able to blend in with the locals there. In this world there is magic, he finds a Paladin, an arranges his transportation to a time and place specific to the assassination of Emperor Strephon.
So there are no Body Guards capable of protecting the Emperor in the time he is in, they need to pull a guy from an alternate universe just to be a bodyguard?

This is starting to feel very convoluted and unnecessarily complex. I would say if you want to port a Paladin over, do so. If you just want to have a religious order that seems to be like Paladins then do it. But either way, I would not waste my time trying to justify it with convoluted story arcs. Keep it simple and let the adventure begin. :D
Doesn't mean he'll necessarily succeed in his mission. the guy from the New Era wants to change history, but he doesn't understand time travel mechanics or paradoxes very well. He either gets hold of an Ancient Time Travel Device or something from the fantasy world which can also travel through time, he visits this world with 3 moons, one silver, one red, and the third one black, and he learns about this device which can travel in time, and about this black robed magician who tried to use it to make himself a god, now where to find it?

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
by alex_greene
-Daniel- wrote:So there are no Body Guards capable of protecting the Emperor in the time he is in, they need to pull a guy from an alternate universe just to be a bodyguard?
Er, apparently not.
-Daniel- wrote:This is starting to feel very convoluted and unnecessarily complex. I would say if you want to port a Paladin over, do so. If you just want to have a religious order that seems to be like Paladins then do it. But either way, I would not waste my time trying to justify it with convoluted story arcs. Keep it simple and let the adventure begin. :D
From the Chronicle of Sir Athanor deSarapo:-

"I knew not how, or why, I camest hence, speaking this barbaric language. I know only that I, locked in mortal combat with the renegade Black Lord Mansur atop the fire mountain Magnamur, fell into fire after having cloven the vile traitor in twain and left his severed halves upon the mountaintop.

My last moment before the fire was regret that I had not saved the fair Veleanora from his depravity, and that she had fallen prey to his lecherous appetites before I could reach the bolthole in which he had sequestered her after her abduction from my Lord's demesnes.

I then felt an impact, and pondered why the fire which surrounded me did not hurt, before I found myself musing firstly wherefore I atill lived, and thereafter concerned by the perplexity of this situation - for the flames I saw swathing me were not the red fires of that hellish realm whence I thought I had fallen, but blue fire which crackled like unto the lightning I witnessed in a summer sky over the Corasta Plains.

I must have lost all consciousness thence, and knew nothing; but when I next roused from my bed, I felt cold stone, clear and yet hard, above me, and I reckoned that I reclined in some sort of a coffin. I had been divested of all of my garb. My armour, my arms, my small supply of rations - all had gone, and I lay nude.

The lid of this bizarre coffin of clear stone opened, and I stumbled into a room bathed in white light which source seemed to be the whole ceiling. A harsh and raucous bellow filled the air as I clambered out of its confines, my aching feet attempting to gain purchase upon the slick floor; and strange words assailed my ears proclaiming that a mystery had entered a final descent. Not unlike myself, I pondered, before an almighty jolt rocked the room and knocked me off my feet."

Would you like to know more? :D

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:39 pm
by hivemindx
Technomages from Babylon 5 would be interesting reference material for this. They basically use technology to create the illusion of magic. There could be an entire order of people like this somewhere in the periphery of the traveller known space and this guy has wandered off from them.

Most, if not all, of the paladin stuff could be covered by psionics. Certainly if you assume that if psionics allows THIS, then there is no reason why it shouldn't allow THAT. Of course that sort of thing is illegal in the Imperium so "hiding his abilities" or "spending the rest of his life in prison/a lab" are two answers to the question of what a paladin does.

Who is to say how someone like this originates. Perhaps they believe the source of their powers is divine but they are delusional. Perhaps their powers do originate with the good old default maguffin for Traveller, the Ancients. Perhaps they have been fooled, some obscure plot by the Zhodani maybe. I played a game before (not Traveller) where we were all supposed to be angels, turned out eventually that we weren't, someone had taken people with relatively regular powers within the game world, wiped their minds and implanted false memories. Never did find out what the purpose of that was.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:47 pm
by Tom Kalbfus
alex_greene wrote:
-Daniel- wrote:So there are no Body Guards capable of protecting the Emperor in the time he is in, they need to pull a guy from an alternate universe just to be a bodyguard?
Er, apparently not.
-Daniel- wrote:This is starting to feel very convoluted and unnecessarily complex. I would say if you want to port a Paladin over, do so. If you just want to have a religious order that seems to be like Paladins then do it. But either way, I would not waste my time trying to justify it with convoluted story arcs. Keep it simple and let the adventure begin. :D
From the Chronicle of Sir Athanor deSarapo:-

"I knew not how, or why, I camest hence, speaking this barbaric language. I know only that I, locked in mortal combat with the renegade Black Lord Mansur atop the fire mountain Magnamur, fell into fire after having cloven the vile traitor in twain and left his severed halves upon the mountaintop.

My last moment before the fire was regret that I had not saved the fair Veleanora from his depravity, and that she had fallen prey to his lecherous appetites before I could reach the bolthole in which he had sequestered her after her abduction from my Lord's demesnes.

I then felt an impact, and pondered why the fire which surrounded me did not hurt, before I found myself musing firstly wherefore I atill lived, and thereafter concerned by the perplexity of this situation - for the flames I saw swathing me were not the red fires of that hellish realm whence I thought I had fallen, but blue fire which crackled like unto the lightning I witnessed in a summer sky over the Corasta Plains.

I must have lost all consciousness thence, and knew nothing; but when I next roused from my bed, I felt cold stone, clear and yet hard, above me, and I reckoned that I reclined in some sort of a coffin. I had been divested of all of my garb. My armour, my arms, my small supply of rations - all had gone, and I lay nude.

The lid of this bizarre coffin of clear stone opened, and I stumbled into a room bathed in white light which source seemed to be the whole ceiling. A harsh and raucous bellow filled the air as I clambered out of its confines, my aching feet attempting to gain purchase upon the slick floor; and strange words assailed my ears proclaiming that a mystery had entered a final descent. Not unlike myself, I pondered, before an almighty jolt rocked the room and knocked me off my feet."

Would you like to know more? :D
Interesting, are you quoting a novel or did you write this yourself?

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:49 pm
by Rick
As another possible reference, you could have used S03E07 of 'Primeval' - "A Dracorex comes through an anomaly, trying to escape from a 14th-century knight who believes he is hunting a dragon. The team are forced to find and save the life of the Dracorex, and then, aided with a bit of medieval research by Sarah, return the confused knight, who thinks he is a new Saint George, to his own world before he kills anyone, out of belief they are demons and he is in hell." :twisted:

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:48 pm
by Condottiere
Spidey sense can work for evil intent, or just danger.

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:36 pm
by FallingPhoenix
Back in the LBB days, my dad actually did more or less the opposite, and ran a scenario where his Traveller group stumbled on his fantasy world. What little I've heard indicates that the Traveller group had a fun time trying to sort out how to deal with working magic and such until they accomplished their objective and some of his fantasy group ended up with GPS or a "wand of smith and wesson" with 10 shots...

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:36 pm
by -Daniel-
FallingPhoenix wrote:Back in the LBB days, my dad actually did more or less the opposite, and ran a scenario where his Traveller group stumbled on his fantasy world. What little I've heard indicates that the Traveller group had a fun time trying to sort out how to deal with working magic and such until they accomplished their objective and some of his fantasy group ended up with GPS or a "wand of smith and wesson" with 10 shots...
Back in the late 70's and early 80's we used to do all kinds of strange mix and match games. Heck any movie or book was fair game for being co-opted into the game. It was like we just had to try it all and do so all at once. The more convoluted and strange the better. :lol:

I admit over time I grew less excited about some of the wild mixes we tried back in the day. I find I like to explore a setting as presented more and see what the designer has in store for me. But I do, once in a while, miss my Half Elf cyborg marine with his Eldarsword and his colt peacemaker. :mrgreen:

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:07 pm
by Condottiere
The Warlock in Spite of Himself is a science fantasy novel by American author Christopher Stasheff, published in 1969. It is the first book in Warlock of Gramarye series. The title is a play on the title of Molière's Le Médecin malgré lui (The Doctor, in Spite of Himself).

As the Vietnam War continued, Stasheff's novel clothed his thinly veiled commentary about the proper uses of government and democracy in a fantasy about interstellar travel, fairies, unusual flora and refugees fleeing persecution.[1]

...

The success of the initial volume led to a not particularly successful 1971 sequel called King Kobold, the first of what would eventually become a complex series of sequels and related works. In 1982, Ace Books published The Warlock Unlocked, in which the Gallowglass family accidentally go through a portal to an alternate universe, where magic really works. The success of this novel led to the publication of the 1983 Escape Velocity a prequel to the original series, recounting the events leading to the colonisation of Gramarye by members of the Society for Creative Anachronism. In rapid succession, these were followed by King Kobold Revived (1984) (a rewrite of King Kobold); The Warlock Enraged (1985); The Warlock Wandering and The Warlock is Missing (both 1986); The Warlock Heretical (1987); The Warlock's Companion (1988); The Warlock Insane (1989); and The Warlock Rock (1990).

Re: When a Noble is a Paladin

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:52 pm
by AndrewW
Condottiere wrote:The Warlock in Spite of Himself is a science fantasy novel by American author Christopher Stasheff, published in 1969. It is the first book in Warlock of Gramarye series. The title is a play on the title of Molière's Le Médecin malgré lui (The Doctor, in Spite of Himself).


Sort of. First published, Escape Velocity which was published later actually takes place before The Warlock in Spite of Himself.