Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

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arcador
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Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby arcador » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:43 pm

In the equipment section, there are shields. A shield increases the melee skill with +1 when used for parrying. And if the individual doesn't have the skill, it gives him a skill of zero.

I'm failing to find a purpose of it. Regarding parry, a skill of 0 is 0 negative DM to the attacker's roll. So far no effect.

Unless, by melee skill they don't mean simply the points in the skill, but the Stat DM + Melee skill.

You see, in Parry, we use "melee skill." In Dodge, we use either Dex DM or Athletics(Dex), whichever is higher. The wording is different.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:28 pm

I can guess:
Parrying
A Traveller in close combat may attempt to parry an opponent’s attack as a Reaction. In so doing, he will inflict his Melee skill as a negative DM to the attacker’s attack roll.
I do not think a naked skill level is supposed to be used, so this implies that DexDM should be added. (Compare with spacecraft dodging.)
SHIELD
A Traveller using a shield increases their effective Melee skill by +1 when parrying. A Traveller with no Melee skill counts as having Melee 0 when using a shield to parry.
This allows us to avoid the unskilled malus, or increases our effective skill by one (or perhaps both?). The skill is used in a skill check, even if it's the enemy's check, so the unskilled malus should apply?


So an unskilled individual with a shield parries with an effective skill level 0 + DexDM.
arcador
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby arcador » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:46 pm

Sounds an interesting option. This will put in a somewhat useful position over Dodge.

I would allow either STR or DEX DM, similar to the attack check.

If by malus you mean the penalty, then perhaps someone with STR MOD +1, unskilled in melee, using a shield to parry will have a net result of 1.
haveahappy
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby haveahappy » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:02 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:I do not think a naked skill level is supposed to be used, so this implies that DexDM should be added. (Compare with spacecraft dodging.)
What makes you say this?

Spacecraft "dodging" is worded the same way, "the pilot's skill".

My reading is that it is only the skill level that applies. Dodging actually goes ahead and says to use EITHER dex modifier OR Athletics (dex) skill, whichever is higher - and then none of the other similar action mention an alternative.

This basically means that if you don't have a relevant skill at a minimum of 1, the only reaction that does anything is diving for cover.
tl:dr; Don't get into melee if you are unskilled!

To answer the OP's question, I would say that at some point parrying (and maybe other reactions too) might have been an opposed check, and that bit on the shield probably slipped through the net. I checked the CSC also and it does not mention this on the same item - the parrying bit is conspicuous by it's absence. The boarding shield, buckler and large shield still refer to this though.
Maybe some errata is required?
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:10 am

haveahappy wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:I do not think a naked skill level is supposed to be used, so this implies that DexDM should be added. (Compare with spacecraft dodging.)
What makes you say this?

Spacecraft "dodging" is worded the same way, "the pilot's skill".
We had some discussion about spacecraft dodging during beta, e.g.:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119108

Sources close to Mongoose (Nerhesi) maintained that Skill + Characteristic DM should be used.
haveahappy
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby haveahappy » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:04 am

AnotherDilbert wrote: Sources close to Mongoose (Nerhesi) maintained that Skill + Characteristic DM should be used.
What if your characteristic DM is negative?
EDIT: I checked the 1st ed. book, both the parrying and shield entry, and they are exactly the same. Almost word for word.

If you don't have a characteristic DM at all, it is still a bit weird, what with a parry having no affect at all..... or a negative effect if for some reason you tried it unskilled.

With that said, I expect that other modifiers like skill augmentations are supposed to count.... so it would follow that characteristic DM's should also....

I think you are correct on that point @AnotherDilbert. If you read the entries from dodge to parry on the assumption that "skill" includes "skill level + characteristic DM + other modifiers" then it makes sense.
Solomani666
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby Solomani666 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:44 pm

.
When doing epic sword/melee battles (not regular battles):

I break the combat round into Minor Actions.


I treat the parry reaction as a separate skill roll divorced from the attack roll.
A character can make a number of these active parries equal to their number of attacks.
The active parry does not use a minor action.
Any remaining reaction parries are as per standard game rules.


An exceptional active parry success grants them a bonus Minor Action.
(The enemy can still react/parry as per the standard rules)

This way the characters get to dance around the common area like Errol Flynn, overturn tables and throw glasses etc.
The faster character with the higher weapon skill will still have a distinct advantage.

Note:
Minor Actions = 3 + Dex modifier with a minimum of 2
Max Attacks/Round = Weapon Skill + 1 (Minimum of 1)
Major Action = 2 Minor Actions
The number of attacks a character can make are limited to the lower of the two.
Attacks using a minor action are -2 DM
Attacks using a Major action are +0 DM


In the case of someone with no skill level using a shield, I would let them make a skill roll (Weapon-0) to parry the attack.



.
haveahappy
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby haveahappy » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:34 am

Solomani666 wrote: I treat the parry reaction as a separate skill roll divorced from the attack roll.


If I could change anything about the system, it would be this, making reactions an active roll.
Outside of combat it's all opposed checks, so I see no reason why combat should be any different.... although the vagaries of the roll might make it deadlier? I am loathe to change things that are likely there for a good reason.

Solomani666 wrote:
Attacks using a minor action are at -2


I have allowed the dual wielding rules to be used but only with common weapons that can be dual wielded (so two quick attacks work exactly the same as two simultaneous attacks). The two attacks are a significant action just like dual wielding - it's a very minor thing, that amounts to the cost of a blade or pistol in most cases - so I see it as pure "special effects".
In the case of a pistol, you'll run out of ammo twice as fast so I see no problem really.

For the most part, I avoid rewriting the rules - I have lots of systems on the shelf so can just pick one that does what I want it to do :)
allanimal
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby allanimal » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:51 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
haveahappy wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:I do not think a naked skill level is supposed to be used, so this implies that DexDM should be added. (Compare with spacecraft dodging.)
What makes you say this?

Spacecraft "dodging" is worded the same way, "the pilot's skill".
We had some discussion about spacecraft dodging during beta, e.g.:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119108

Sources close to Mongoose (Nerhesi) maintained that Skill + Characteristic DM should be used.
Too bad it doesn't say that in the book or an errata sheet...
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:47 am

allanimal wrote:Too bad it doesn't say that in the book or an errata sheet...
I certainly agree...
Solomani666
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby Solomani666 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:52 pm

haveahappy wrote: Attacks using a minor action are at -2
I have allowed the dual wielding rules to be used but only with common weapons that can be dual wielded (so two quick attacks work exactly the same as two simultaneous attacks). The two attacks are a significant action just like dual wielding - it's a very minor thing, that amounts to the cost of a blade or pistol in most cases - so I see it as pure "special effects".
In the case of a pistol, you'll run out of ammo twice as fast so I see no problem really.

For the most part, I avoid rewriting the rules - I have lots of systems on the shelf so can just pick one that does what I want it to do :)[/quote]
The Minor Action attack harkens back to the early Snapshot rules.

Persons familiar with firearms know that a skilled marksman can put multiple rounds on target in 6 seconds if not taking the time to fully aim.
Solomani666
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby Solomani666 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:59 pm

haveahappy wrote: If I could change anything about the system, it would be this, making reactions an active roll.
Outside of combat it's all opposed checks, so I see no reason why combat should be any different.... although the vagaries of the roll might make it deadlier? I am loathe to change things that are likely there for a good reason.
It doesn't make anything deadlier.
It's not an apposed skill check, but a check to parry the attack.
If the defenders parry is successful than the attack fails, period.

This has the effect of making melee combat longer and more drawn out, which is the point.
Like I said, I only use this for epic battles.
haveahappy
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Re: Melee skill of 0, for parrying. Purpose?

Postby haveahappy » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:14 pm

Solomani666 wrote:It doesn't make anything deadlier.
It's not an apposed skill check, but a check to parry the attack.
If the defenders parry is successful than the attack fails, period.

This has the effect of making melee combat longer and more drawn out, which is the point.
Like I said, I only use this for epic battles.[/color]
Oh sure, that's a bit different then.

Not something I would do, but I see what you're going for there :)

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