HG 2e Weapons per turret

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HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:36 pm

Hello all,

In a majority of Traveller rule sets fusion and plasma guns are limited to two per turret, while particle weapons are one per turret or barbette.

How many fusion guns, plasma guns, particle beams, and plasma-pulse cannons can be mounted in a turret?
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:09 pm

No limitation in the rules, you can even use quad turrets if you like.

If you do not want to make barbettes completely obsolete, you have to limit them to single turrets as a house rule.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby kevinknight » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:42 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:Hello all,

In a majority of Traveller rule sets fusion and plasma guns are limited to two per turret, while particle weapons are one per turret or barbette.

How many fusion guns, plasma guns, particle beams, and plasma-pulse cannons can be mounted in a turret?
There are no special limitations. However, if you are playing in the 3I setting, these are not allowed per standard setting rules.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AndrewW » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:52 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:In a majority of Traveller rule sets fusion and plasma guns are limited to two per turret, while particle weapons are one per turret or barbette.

How many fusion guns, plasma guns, particle beams, and plasma-pulse cannons can be mounted in a turret?
There isn't a rule limit, so it's up to the referee. This was done on purpose.

The earlier Mongoose High Guard didn't have a limit either, the errata added the limit.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:56 pm

kevinknight wrote:There are no special limitations. However, if you are playing in the 3I setting, these are not allowed per standard setting rules.
Well, it is vaguely hinted that they are optional, but the Imperial Navy seems to use them. See, e.g., the Tigress.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby Condottiere » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:07 am

Kinda reminded me of Black Globes.

Wait until the Darrians get ahold of a copy of High Guard.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AndrewW » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:13 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:Well, it is vaguely hinted that they are optional, but the Imperial Navy seems to use them. See, e.g., the Tigress.
Only ships that already had them prior to the change continue to use them.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:38 am

Hello all,

Thank you all for your replies.

CT/MT/TNE/T4/T20/GURPS Traveller 3I setting all have fusion guns and plasma guns in either single or double turrets. The particle beam is in either a single turret or single barbette.

Plasma gun turrets in the other rule sets are available at TL 10, Fusion Gun turrets are TL 12 these turrets take-up 2 d-tons, and there are no barbettes.
A Particle Beam Barbette is available at TL 14 which is 5 d-tons with the weapon in a turret available at TL 14 and occupies 3 d-tons.

Plasma-pulse cannons are not in the other rule sets.

Next, the MgT 3I setting does, for whatever reason, allow them as part of Chapter Eight.

MgT HG 1e Errata stated that only one particle beam may be fitted to a turret, but this must be a triple turret.

My solution for plasma guns and fusion guns is one or two to a turret and allow three in a quad turret.
A particle beam will be limited to one per turret with the exception of the quad which would be able to house two.
The plasma-pulse cannon will be limited to one per turret with the exception of the quad turret which would house two.

Again thank you for the replies.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby Condottiere » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:38 am

Engineering standards, possibly custom and tradition, holds the standard turret at a tonne.

In Mongoose First, I would have followed naval tradition and had three to five torpedo tubes bundled on a hard point.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:36 pm

Morning PDT Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:Engineering standards, possibly custom and tradition, holds the standard turret at a tonne.

In Mongoose First, I would have followed naval tradition and had three to five torpedo tubes bundled on a hard point.
MgT HG 2e engineering standards allow 1 d-ton turrets and 2 d-ton pop-up turrets in Chapter 2 to mount one, two, or three. My announced solution from Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:38 I mentioned the d-ton turret requirements from the earlier Traveller rule sets. Unfortunately, I was not clear that my MgT 2e solution for the fusion gun, plasma gun, and particle beam turrets were 1 d-ton or 2 d-ton pop-up types. Fusion gun and plasma gun 1 d-ton turrets mount one or two weapons. A particle beam 1 d-ton turret can mount only one weapon.

Torpedo launchers or other weapons are attached to hardpoints using fixed mounts, turrets, barbettes, small bays, medium bays, large bays, or spinal mount. From Chapter Two p. 23 "Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount...". The maximum number of torpedo launchers in my opinion based on the rule quoted is three torpedo tube launchers per hardpoint since they are in a fixed mount.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Smallest mount for torpedoes is barbettes. No torpedoes on fixed mounts.

Missile racks can be mounted on fixed mounts.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:01 pm

Hello AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:Smallest mount for torpedoes is barbettes. No torpedoes on fixed mounts.

Missile racks can be mounted on fixed mounts.
A barbette per HG 2e p. 25 is effectively a heavy turret, which is pretty much in line with the real concept of a barbette. Further a torpedo per HG 2e p. 26 is a heavy anti-ship missile.

My guess after looking at the torpedo bays is that a torpedo barbette/heavy turret has a single launcher to punt the weapons out when in combat. The standard turret is capable of holding up to three weapons and a fixed mount reflects in my opinion the maximum number of weapons in a 1 d-ton turret.

Considering the above information I feel that a hardpoint with a fixed mount can handle one torpedo versus the three that appear to be based on the turret details from HG 2e pp. 24-25.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:48 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:A barbette per HG 2e p. 25 is effectively a heavy turret, which is pretty much in line with the real concept of a barbette. Further a torpedo per HG 2e p. 26 is a heavy anti-ship missile.
Yes, but "barbette" is a separate class of heavier weapons, they are not "turret" weapons.
snrdg121408 wrote:My guess after looking at the torpedo bays is that a torpedo barbette/heavy turret has a single launcher to punt the weapons out when in combat. The standard turret is capable of holding up to three weapons and a fixed mount reflects in my opinion the maximum number of weapons in a 1 d-ton turret.
Yes, a torpedo barbette can launch one torpedo. Yes, a standard turret can mount up to three "turret" weapons, e.g. missile racks. No, a torpedo launcher is not a "turret" weapon.
Turrets and fixed mounts use the same type of weapons...
A fixed mount can only mount weapons from the Turret Weapons table (top of p25 [and possibly top pf p68]).
snrdg121408 wrote:Considering the above information I feel that a hardpoint with a fixed mount can handle one torpedo versus the three that appear to be based on the turret details from HG 2e pp. 24-25.
No, not unless you house rule it.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby GarethL » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:23 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:A barbette per HG 2e p. 25 is effectively a heavy turret, which is pretty much in line with the real concept of a barbette.
I must confess to a little confusion here, real world barbettes are not really heavy turrets at all. They where a lightweight method of mounting heavy armament without making vessels top-heavy, important for naval vessels, not so much in space. They did evolve into modern turrets, but the barbette is still the box under the turret on modern warships.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby Condottiere » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:31 am

Suspect barbettes were added around the time of the Gazelle, so that it would have more bite.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby Jeraa » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:53 am

Condottiere wrote:Suspect barbettes were added around the time of the Gazelle, so that it would have more bite.
Don't know when the Gazelle first appeared, but barbettes (At least for particle accelerators) first appeared in Classic Traveller High Guard.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:33 am

Hello AnotherDilbert,

We have met an impasse on the matter, per HG 2e a barbette is "effectively" a heavy "turret" and technically they are part of a modern naval turret. However, another member suggested that a hardpoint could mount from three to six torpedoes. My counter was that the torpedo was not mounted to a hardpoint but to a fixed mount which is attached to a hardpoint. A hardpoint is an attachment point for weapons or other equipment on a vehicle, today they are mainly associated with combat aircraft.

Thank you for your reply.

AnotherDilbert wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:A barbette per HG 2e p. 25 is effectively a heavy turret, which is pretty much in line with the real concept of a barbette. Further a torpedo per HG 2e p. 26 is a heavy anti-ship missile.
Yes, but "barbette" is a separate class of heavier weapons, they are not "turret" weapons.
snrdg121408 wrote:My guess after looking at the torpedo bays is that a torpedo barbette/heavy turret has a single launcher to punt the weapons out when in combat. The standard turret is capable of holding up to three weapons and a fixed mount reflects in my opinion the maximum number of weapons in a 1 d-ton turret.
Yes, a torpedo barbette can launch one torpedo. Yes, a standard turret can mount up to three "turret" weapons, e.g. missile racks. No, a torpedo launcher is not a "turret" weapon.
Turrets and fixed mounts use the same type of weapons...
A fixed mount can only mount weapons from the Turret Weapons table (top of p25 [and possibly top pf p68]).
snrdg121408 wrote:Considering the above information I feel that a hardpoint with a fixed mount can handle one torpedo versus the three that appear to be based on the turret details from HG 2e pp. 24-25.
No, not unless you house rule it.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:32 am

Hello GarethL, Condottiere and Jeraa,
GarethL wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:A barbette per HG 2e p. 25 is effectively a heavy turret, which is pretty much in line with the real concept of a barbette.
I must confess to a little confusion here, real world barbettes are not really heavy turrets at all. They where a lightweight method of mounting heavy armament without making vessels top-heavy, important for naval vessels, not so much in space. They did evolve into modern turrets, but the barbette is still the box under the turret on modern warships.
Actually barbettes got their start on land and were adapted for shipboard use. From discussions on other forums/boards the suggestion is that the GDW designers used barbette as a way to indicate that a particle accelerator went from a bay to an intermediate stage they called barbette down to a turret.

Note that CT and other rule sets list a barbette on the turret weapon tables. MgT HG, in my opinion, suggests that a barbette is effectively a larger turret but not as clearly as the previous Traveller rule sets.
Condottiere wrote:Suspect barbettes were added around the time of the Gazelle, so that it would have more bite.
Jeraa wrote:
Condottiere wrote:Suspect barbettes were added around the time of the Gazelle, so that it would have more bite.
Don't know when the Gazelle first appeared, but barbettes (At least for particle accelerators) first appeared in Classic Traveller High Guard.
The first article describing the Gazelle Class Escort by Marc W. Miller can be found in The Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society No. 4 published in 1980 pp. 14-21. On p. 19 the barbette and the particle accelerator are a variant of the material in High Guard and grafted onto Book 2. Supplement 7 copyright 1980 also includes the Gazelle with slightly different ans less details.

The next mention of the Gazelle is found in Supplement 8 with even less detail. In the copy of the Consolidated CT Errata downloaded from the Far Future Enterprises link pointing to Donald McKinney's web site which is no longer available due to his passing in Dec. 2015 the errata states that the Gazelle as described can not be built using CT LBB 2, CT LBB 5 HG 1e, or CT LBB 5 HG 2e for Supplement 7. For Supplement 9 the errata states that the armament was designed counting the drop tank tonnage which CT LBB 5 HG 5 2e does not allow. To make the design legal one of the laser turrets or particle beam turrets need to be removed.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby Condottiere » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:52 am

The Traveller template for spaceship weapon systems is that one size fits all, which is rarely the case in real life.

Originally, any bay took ten hardpoints regardless of size, so you would need some intermediary class, otherwise the effect would be for military vessels popguns if they all used the same weapon systems available to commercial ships.

In Mongoose First, torpedoes weighed in at two and a half tonnes each, which would make them closer to ICBMs, and that made it logical to impose a limit of two for a barbette, though still puzzling, if you start to wonder where's the space for fire control.

Reloading them manually would be fine with me, though it's a hassle, which is why navies tended to add more tubes.

You don't need to have read Weber to come to the conclusion you can do much more with missiles and torpedoes, though I suspect our two and a half tonners now graduate to ten tonne suicide drones.
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Re: HG 2e Weapons per turret

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:16 am

snrdg121408 wrote:We have met an impasse on the matter, per HG 2e a barbette is "effectively" a heavy "turret" and technically they are part of a modern naval turret.
We can certainly disagree, but I do not think the intent of the rules are unclear or unrealistic in this context.

Turret:
Image
Heavy turret:
Image
They do not use the same weapons...

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