The Imperiums Response?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:22 pm

Hi guys.

I have a idea for a new race that will be unique to my campaign that are many times more advanced then The Imperum, 2 examples being their smallest Scoutships still in military use are TL 14 and massive 1,700 tons and their smallest Battleship is TL 22 and masses almost 1.1 million tons, but won't invade The Imperium for fear that due to its size and distance from their core worlds they would not be able to safely control it, their existing territories and all the territory in-between

First contact will be, by pure bad luck, with their races greatest living pirate who fled using A one-use only version of Ancient Jump Gate and commands 325 ships, the smallest of which his race class as a light Scout, but The Imperium would class as A Medium Frigate and the biggest of which his race class as a medium Cruiser, but The Imperium would class as A Heavy Battleship.

Can I please have some hints, tips and advice for how The Imperium would handle these revelatin that was TL 10 with A Empire of 1,014 worlds and 405 sentinent sentient species a decade before, on Earth, we fought the 2nd Gulf War as well as suggetions for The Imperiums likely response and ideas for were the characters fit in and suggestions for the characters role/roles in all of this
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:25 pm

Ooops sorry I misspelt revelations and forgot to put TL 25 super Empire that now has more then 1 million life-supporting worlds and more then 4 dozen thousand sentient species before the bit on the size it had reached before, on Earth, The 2nd Gulf War. Sorry
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3280
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Location: Arlington, TX USA

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:04 pm

I for one salute our new Imperial Overlords.

I don't see how the 3I could withstand such a large and powerful (technologically) empire.

IF they don't want to invade, then the Imperium would do ANYTHING to get access to the theory and production capabilities to advance their tech level.
My friends call me Richard.
You can call me Sir.
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:07 pm

Its not that they don't want to conquer The Imperium, its just that given the size of their Empire, 1 million+ worlds, 130,000+ Star Systems, 29,000 odd Subsectors, 2,800 odd Sectors, more then 2 dozen galaxies and more then 48,000 sentient and more then 130,00 semi-sentient species they know that they find itvery hard, sometimes almost impossible, to control their Empire that has taken almost 10,800 years to build and, as a result, have decided that they are safer not extending, likely overextending, themselves by going for a victory that not even a alliance of every race known to man, including The Solomani, The Zhodani and every single Aslan Clan in excistence could delay by more then 20 years and the more diplomactically skilled call the benefits to The Travaller Settings Races a added bonus
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3280
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:20 pm
Location: Arlington, TX USA

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:34 pm

So there is this super-Empire just off the map... What are you going to do with it?

If they don't conquer/invade Charted Space, then they aren't really that important to everyday people. If you are just looking for a way to add super-high-tech items to your game, fine; but I don't know that there IS a response from any of the races in Charted Space that matters when facing a multi-galactic Empire. Ignore them or join them - there is no fight.

Depends on what the Uber-Empire wants to do with Charted Space. This can't be the only settled region on their "border". How do they treat these races? That will have a lot more to do with how the 3I or any of the other races react than anything else. Sure, they would all start hyper-research projects, but given the semi-cold-war setting in 1105, they should already be doing that, so honestly I am not sure much would change in the immediate timeline.

KNOWING that something can be done will change a lot of attitudes in research though. Intergalactic travel means that the Jump Drive is NOT the be-all/end-all, so research might take a bunch of different directions; but that is more long-term, not something that average group of Travellers are going to see.
My friends call me Richard.
You can call me Sir.
Epicenter
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:37 pm

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Epicenter » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:13 am

JMISBEST wrote:Its not that they don't want to conquer The Imperium, its just that given the size of their Empire, 1 million+ worlds, 130,000+ Star Systems, 29,000 odd Subsectors, 2,800 odd Sectors, more then 2 dozen galaxies
You do realize how huge a single galaxy is, right? Even a "small" galaxy? Our Milky Way galaxy, which is basically your utterly average 3BR, 2BATH tract house in the surburbs of galaxies, contains some 100 billion stars (though some estimates say four times that). Assuming 24 galaxies @ 100 billion stars each, that's 2,400,000,000,000 stars. Each Sector of this uber-empire would contain 857,142,857 stars. Each Sector would contain 82,578,620 stars. Assuming Traveller rates of habitable worlds, you're going to hit 1 million habitable worlds without even leaving a subsector.

If the sectors and subsectors instead are Traveller-sized, that suggests the uber-empire probably doesn't control all of any galaxy - perhaps they use some sort of wormhole / stargate technology and are so clustered around the wormholes/stargates so the overwhelming majority of those two dozen+ galaxies are actually unclaimed?

These kinds of considerations are important because it'd shape how the Imperium would react.

The Imperium, through its long histories, is well-aware these kinds of situations exist.

After the initial "LETS FITE" collective desperation wears off, they'd probably adopt a multi-prong approach. Human history teaches us that they'd have to grab whatever straws they can to buy time so that the Imperium can close the technological gap between them and the uber-Empire as fast as possible before they're dismembered. There'd be a lot of discussion of the situation of Japan in 1868 AD as well the advantages of export-led growth, technological diffusion, and so on.

* Diplomacy. Diplomacy is the friend of the weaker states. If you can get the other side to talk, you've already made progress. The Imperium desperately needs information at this sudden 500-pound gorilla that's suddenly stomped into the room.

- How strong are they? How much of these so-called two dozen galaxies do they really control? How tight is their grip?
- How militaristic? The Imperium already knows that the uber-Empire is hesitant to conquer the Imperium because they fear internal instability; the Imperium would likely feel how exactly what would push this uber-Empire to war so at least they know what they need to avoid doing.
- Just how far ahead are they technologically? How well-distributed is this technology among its peoples?
- What is the economic situation with them? Do they have scarcity? Markets? How is trade regulated? Can we trade with them? If we can, what can we trade?

* Allies. The Imperium would be well-aware their traditional rivals in their old haunts are going to be aware of this uber-Empire as well. They're if not, it'd be in the Imperium's interests to be the ones to tell them - information wants to be free and eventually their neighbors will find out. There is NO WAY the Imperium is going have some ridiculous conspiracy theory level "secret relations" with this uber-Empire. Since they can't conceal this fact from their neighbors it's better to exploit the power in being the ones who tell the Solomani, Hivers, etc. about this new power. The Imperium would likely try and form some sort of alliance with this uber-state and if this state isn't interested in that, then with this state's other neighbors and smaller rivals of which it's likely to have many.

* Trade. The Imperium is going to aggressively pursue trade with uber-Empire's citizens. While you might imagine that this uber-Empire at large might not have anything to gain trading with the Imperium (and you'd be right), there's always going to be smaller groups or individuals in this uber-Empire who will be open to trade - perhaps some world on the edge of this uber-Empire particularly needs tin or platinum or something similar. Who knows, if there's something they want, the Imperium will encourage its own merchants to fulfill that need. In return, they'd want TL22 technological doodads from this uber-Empire. If possible deals would be sealed for production of devices in the Imperium, technical training, and similar things. In such an uber-Empire, it's likely someone is over there is going to be willing to trade knowledge.

No matter how much your uber-empire doesn't want to expand, it is a grave threat to the Imperium and the Imperium will have very little ability to do anything about it. The technology gap is simply too wide, unless the technology gap between what is possible in this uber-empire and what actually exists in quantity is huge (eg; some units in the Galactic Empire's Navy have TL22, but average citizen has access to TL14 at best for whatever reason).

The invasion of this uber-Empire will not be led by its armed forces, but by its corporations (or equivalent), settlers, and similar types. Greed would be an overwhelming characteristic of this uber-Empire - even if some (or most) species have achieved some sort of philosophy of post-scarcity, with so many individuals, cultures, and species, there's always going to be those who want more. This limitless covetousness is going to mean that even with the unthinkable to resources of the uber-Empire, all of its resources will be controlled, regulated, and answered for by someone even if it just to say "no, you can't use it, we're conserving it." This means that newer generations are always going to be pushing outwards, forever looking for new resources to exploit, new markets to expand into, and so on. That's exactly what Known Space would become. TL22 vs. TL15 would be akin to a modern 21st century people encountering Aztecs or something. Human history is replete with what happens when there's a completely unregulated new market and the natives are too weak to resist you so you can do whatever you want - even if 99 of every 100 of the uber-Empire's merchants are models of integrity and believers in the brotherhood of sentient species, that one guy is going to gain a huge advantage by not being that way. And it's likely those types are going to be more common than just 1 in 100; once they figure out how primitive the Imperium is compared to them, there's a real danger of an open season. It'll be particularly bad because you suggest your uber-Empire has some concerns controlling its existing Empire - if there are races or groups jockeying for power in the uber-Empire, then they're all the more likely to bankroll mercenaries, adventurers, and "traders" to go set up their "East India Company" and "VOC" and so on in the Imperium if only to gain wealth for power battles in the uber-Empire.

This kind of invasion would lead to a catch-22 for the uber-Empire. Their "adventurers" will pillage the Imperium unless stopped. A TL15 can harm TL22 things. Once the "citizens" of this uber-Empire are harmed in the Imperium, then the groups bankrolling them can ask the rulers of the uber-Empire, "Why aren't you protecting our citizens?" - The uber-empire's current regime can ignore it (and thus appear weak, which would be bad) or they'd have to punatively punish the Imperium (think China during the "Century of Shame"). Similarly, once the uber-Empire is known and how powerless the Imperium is towards it, all kinds of restive populations in the Imperium are likely to rise in revolt - there's no point in being part of the Imperium if it can't protect you. It's likely the uber-Empire will end up de facto conquering the Imperium or literally doing it, over the course of decades in dibs and dobs even though neither group really wanted the war.
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:18 pm

Sorry got my playtest notes mixed up with the final notes.

They come from a far-off universe with Galaxies that are a fraction the size of those known to The Imperiums and are the biggest of 5 Super Powers, they control 6 galaxies of around 165,000 to 170,000 worlds each or around 1,009,000 worlds in total, their navy tech ranges from TL 14 to 25, their armies Tech ranges from TL 13 to 21 and their civilian Tech Ranges from TL 11 to 16

The other 4 super-powers control between 3 and 5 similiar sized Galaxies or 16 in total and have Navy Tech ranging from 13 to 20, Army tech ranging from TL 11 to 19 and civilian ranging from to TL 10 to 14

The other 4 galaxies are divided between 14 minor races that control between 1 quarter and 4 10's of a galaxy each and have Navy Tech between TL 10 and 16, Army Tech that ranges from TL 9 to TL 15 and civilian tech that ranges from TL 7 to TL 12

The reason listed in the original post was the official reason why they won't invade Charted Space, the true reason is that sending that many troops and ships that far may make 2 or more of the other 4 major powers see them as weak enough to risk invading, which would at the very least lose them a lot of territory, possibly even their Empire.

Sorry for putting the stuff on the playtest ideas, not the actual idea. Please post somr suggestions, advise and help on the correct stuff on this new race that I have detailed above
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:59 pm

Ooops should have been 13 minor races each controlling between 3 20's and 4 10's of A Galaxy, I was looking at the final draft listings, not the absoulte listings
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:30 pm

I also forgot to mention that The main Super-powers ships range from 1,700 tons to 5,744,100 tons, the other 4 super powers ship range from 1,300 tons to 4,143,600 tons and the 13 lesser nations ships range from 600 tons to 473,500 tons. Yet again please advise
Nathan Brazil
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Contact:

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Nathan Brazil » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:26 am

What is your expectation of response? What is the FACE of the enemy that the Imperium will see? A sudden influx of combat ships? Some new merchants of a sophont type not seen before? What the backing this new enemy is irrelevant (galaxies, millions of species, whatever) if the Imperium is not aware of them. To respond, the Imperium must have become aware and have reached the listening ears of the Emperor or Archdukes to formulate a response. If the Imperium is aware, how did that happen? Did Naval intelligence capture one of the enemy scout ships intact? Given the tech you speak of that does not seem likely.

If you are using the standard OTU map, what direction are they coming from and why have they ignored the other empire that is in the way no matter what direction.
Come From Core the Vargr
Come From Trailing the K'kree and Hiver - maybe there a war starts as the K'kree are not so friendly....
Come From Rimard the Aslan, Solomani and Hivers are in the way
Come From Spinward, the Aslan and Zhodani - maybe the Zhodani read the mind of one of these new out of towners? But are they really going to share with the evil, deceitful Third Imperium?

Finally if they sneak in from the Greater or Lesser Rifts, their ships would have to be capable of Jump 5 or Jump 4 over many Jumps to get to the Imperium that way. Fuel for Jump-5 takes a bit of tonnage...

OTOH if you are looking for the empires to unite, that happened in the OTU already. All it took was Virus to ally with the K'kree to create create the jihad to exterminate all non-herbivores. So maybe the threat of actual extinction will force a response. Or as I call them My Little Ponies of Death, where friendship is not possible :twisted:
0401 X55A670-A S he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+ 733
IMTU tc+ tm tn++ t4+ tg t20++ ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt-- au- ls pi+ ta he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:48 am

I have a alternate idea. See what you think.

Their King decides to risk war in order to give his empire the power needed to, in 3 or 4 centuries, conquerer the other 4 major powers and the 13 leser races. But his heir doesn't like the idea, but knows he can't convince his father without something extreme, so he secretly goes on a slumming it holiday in 1 of te lesser races TL 11 2,800 ton Tourist Ships, he ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time and only The Pcs, who are in it to help The Imperium, who are their thanks to A Zhodani Seers vision, who is also in on it, distract The Attackers by offering them a easier target, but are saved when A Navy Ship, whose captain and only its captain is in on it, misjumps and scare away the attackers. Naturally it was all planned, but it works and all that is used by The Kings Heir are leeverage to get his father to got for peace not war. Everyone wins.

What do you think
Solomani666
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 781
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:07 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Solomani666 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:02 pm

JMISBEST wrote:Hi guys.

I have a idea for a new race that will be unique to my campaign that are many times more advanced then The Imperum, 2 examples being their smallest Scoutships still in military use are TL 14 and massive 1,700 tons and their smallest Battleship is TL 22 and masses almost 1.1 million tons, but won't invade The Imperium for fear that due to its size and distance from their core worlds they would not be able to safely control it, their existing territories and all the territory in-between
Why would a TL 25 empire still maintain TL 14 ships except in a museum.
I imagine that anyone assigned to such a ship would mutiny.
That would be like assigning Navy personnel to a wooden colonial era frigate with mast and sails and black-powder cannons.
AndrewW
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4021
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby AndrewW » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:54 pm

Solomani666 wrote:That would be like assigning Navy personnel to a wooden colonial era frigate with mast and sails and black-powder cannons.
Something like the USS Constitution?

Image
As a fully commissioned U.S. Navy ship, her crew of 60 officers and sailors participate in ceremonies, educational programs, and special events while keeping the ship open to visitors year round and providing free tours. The officers and crew are all active-duty U.S. Navy personnel and the assignment is considered to be special duty in the U.S. Navy. Traditionally, command of the vessel is assigned to a Navy commander.
Solomani666
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 781
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:07 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Solomani666 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:00 pm

AndrewW wrote:
Solomani666 wrote:That would be like assigning Navy personnel to a wooden colonial era frigate with mast and sails and black-powder cannons.
Something like the USS Constitution?

Image
As a fully commissioned U.S. Navy ship, her crew of 60 officers and sailors participate in ceremonies, educational programs, and special events while keeping the ship open to visitors year round and providing free tours. The officers and crew are all active-duty U.S. Navy personnel and the assignment is considered to be special duty in the U.S. Navy. Traditionally, command of the vessel is assigned to a Navy commander.
I was actually thinking of this as I wrote my comment.
It's a working museum and historical relic.
It's commission is for ceremonial purposes.
AndrewW
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4021
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby AndrewW » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:56 pm

Solomani666 wrote:I was actually thinking of this as I wrote my comment.
First thing I thought of when reading your comment.
-Daniel-
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:20 pm
Location: Burbank, CA

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby -Daniel- » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:33 am

AndrewW wrote:
Solomani666 wrote:I was actually thinking of this as I wrote my comment.
First thing I thought of when reading your comment.
While I think the USS Constitution is a great floating museum, it would never be used as a warship today. In fact it fit well within the scope of his question: "Why would a TL 25 empire still maintain TL 14 ships except in a museum?" :D
PsiTraveller
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:47 pm

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby PsiTraveller » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:38 am

I think you can do whatever you want to do in your universe. As for ideas, you may want to consider what technology they brought with them. They can have TL 22 phased antimatter missiles that destroy battleships, but if they cannot resupply once they go through their Ancient gate they will win until they run out of ammo.

If they have beam weapons they will win until they need a Tl 22 Starport to repair their ship and do the yearly maintenance, assuming their nano derived hulls actually need maintenance.

If they brought the magic box of nano goo to make everything they need. Matter transmutation or nano forging on demand then the Imperium is probably screwed unless they send hundreds of ships in an endless wave to wear the ships down. This is assuming that the ships can do damage against TL 22 black globes/white globe defensive screens.

Your concept puts a 10 TL difference between a pirate and everyone else. That is swords and shield TL 2 vs TL 12 combat armour difference.

You can do pretty much anything you want to in that situation. The TL 14 ships are going to be chewed up, they are the only thing that can be hit, unless there is a TL 22 globe generator in it, then everything is safe again.

So the IMperium will be trying to sneak in pocket nukes and spies into the ships. Psionic agents will hopefully be able to turn the crew and have them leak secrets, or assassinate leaders from within.

In a standup fight the Imperium loses.
JMISBEST
Mongoose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:25 am

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby JMISBEST » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:57 pm

Can I have some more ideas and suggestions please?
Tom Kalbfus
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2206
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:56 pm

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:02 pm

A single galactic empire is mind-numbingly huge! It has 100 billion stars, and Star Wars doesn't even begin to portray such a thing correctly! The Imperium only has 11,000 worlds, it is easier to get one's mind around that figure than 100 billion stars. If you going to go with 24 galaxies, it really doesn't matter from the point of view of the Imperium. All it gives you is bragging rights that your Empire is bigger than somebody else's.
steve98052
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 387
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:13 am
Location: near Seattle

Re: The Imperiums Response?

Postby steve98052 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:35 am

A galactic empire is so large that if every inhabited world sent a single representative (without any supporting staff) to the galactic parliament, the parliament "house" would have to be as big as an entire large nation. To fit the galactic parliament into a single convention center, each member would have to represent a multi-world district the size of the Imperium.

What would player characters do in such a setting? Would each one be a sector admiral, coordinating the maneuvers of thousands of ships through stolen faster-than-light communication devices? Would they be ordinary space-faring folks making their way through a universe where their 11000-world, 18-trillion-population Imperium is a bit player?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests