Missile Turrets

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Infojunky
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Infojunky » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:48 am

-Daniel- wrote:
Condottiere wrote: So we're back to the one tonne turret, which supposedly has space for a human gunner.
Warning Heretical Comment Ahead..... I do not care one bit what any rule says, I will never, ever picture a gunner sitting in the turret B-24 belly gunner style. I just can't accept that between now and the future that is Traveller that man has not figured out how to load and fire a missile from a magazine using an automatic loading system. I just can't. :|
Ya know I never saw a rule that said the gunner had to sit in the mount, thus I always assumed they where similar to naval gun mounts and arm launchers...

As such I have always assumed that reloading a turret was done from outside the mount.

Furthermore with the advent of the 12 missiles per ton of MgT to include autoloading equipment. And in light of 8+ years an no comment otherwise my opinion stands...
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-Daniel-
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:39 am

snrdg121408 wrote: One thing I just caught is that the Iowa-Class 16" guns are housed in a three gun turret not a triple turret. Each gun tube can be elevated and fired separately. Until now I thought the triple turret could elevate and fire mounted weapons looks like I've been in error, nuts.
Yep, that is why I hated the model I got as a kid. The guns were one part so they were forced to elevate together. It bugged me because I knew they could elevate independent of each other. Funny what things bug when you are a kid. :mrgreen:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:44 am

Infojunky wrote: Ya know I never saw a rule that said the gunner had to sit in the mount, thus I always assumed they where similar to naval gun mounts and arm launchers....
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that there was a rule. Rather I was just voicing the fact, in my minds eye, I will always picture an automatic reload system and a remote gunner position. That is all. I am sure we all see in out minds what we want to see. Part of the fun of pen and paper role playing, we get to have a movie in our heads. :mrgreen:
Condottiere
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:50 am

My colleague stated he had lifted a one fifty five shell by himself, and that was supposedly a two man job.

Most main guns have separate elevation, in order to find the range and straddle their targets; less of an issue if they're high(er) velocity guns.

I think only one class of American battleships had main guns that were locked together.
haveahappy
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby haveahappy » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:40 am

Ammunition for a missile turret would be packed suitable into crates, suitable packing etc. Thus the extra space.

Once loaded into the turret they are no longer surrounded by shock absorbing materials and packaging.

Unless you keep your spare missiles rolling around on the deck?

This is the box a stinger missile comes in - you can see it is easily stackable, but takes up considerably more volume than the missile alone:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... ntP26JLiRg

EDIT: I'd also note that you'd be unlikely to stake missiles 3m high to the ceiling unless you are merely hauling them as cargo. TO keep them as ammunition they'd need to be easily accessible, I'm guessing in a purpose made rack/cabinet or similar.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:48 am

haveahappy wrote: Unless you keep your spare missiles rolling around on the deck?
I am not that stupid. I duct tape them to the walls. :wink:

:lol:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby haveahappy » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:05 am

-Daniel- wrote:
haveahappy wrote: Unless you keep your spare missiles rolling around on the deck?
I am not that stupid. I duct tape them to the walls. :wink:

:lol:
That must be great when the pirates board and start shooting!
Condottiere
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:19 am

Then you duct tape them to the deck, and point it in their general direction.

You might blow a hole through your ship, but think of the lulz.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:24 am

haveahappy wrote:
-Daniel- wrote:
haveahappy wrote: Unless you keep your spare missiles rolling around on the deck?
I am not that stupid. I duct tape them to the walls. :wink:

:lol:
That must be great when the pirates board and start shooting!
Of course you are assuming they get aboard. :lol:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:25 am

Condottiere wrote:Then you duct tape them to the deck, and point it in their general direction.

You might blow a hole through your ship, but think of the lulz.
That would bring the laughs to the table. Course later we might regret it, but in the moment, lulz is right. :mrgreen:
Solomani666
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Solomani666 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:52 pm

kevinknight wrote:A triple turret takes up 1 ton. You can put 3 missile racks in said triple turret. As stated in High Guard each missile rack comes with 12 missiles, for a total of 36 missiles. However, later on it states that 12 missiles take up 1 ton of space.
The Fleet Courier has 2 triple missile turrets and 2 tons of missile storage (24missiles). So my question here would be how many missiles does the fleet courier actually have? Just 24 or 60? And if 60 how are 36 missiles, 3 launchers and a triple turret all crammed into 1 ton of space?
My answer would be 24 because that's all that makes logical sense. But if so then why does it state under missile racks that each comes with 12? Is that simply a mistake that didn't get taken out?
I only allow 3 missiles per rack.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:25 pm

Hello Infojunky,
Infojunky wrote:
-Daniel- wrote:
Condottiere wrote: So we're back to the one tonne turret, which supposedly has space for a human gunner.
Warning Heretical Comment Ahead..... I do not care one bit what any rule says, I will never, ever picture a gunner sitting in the turret B-24 belly gunner style. I just can't accept that between now and the future that is Traveller that man has not figured out how to load and fire a missile from a magazine using an automatic loading system. I just can't. :|
Ya know I never saw a rule that said the gunner had to sit in the mount, thus I always assumed they where similar to naval gun mounts and arm launchers...

As such I have always assumed that reloading a turret was done from outside the mount.
The 5"/38 gun turrets used on the Iowa-Class and many other warships the crew, like the 16" guns were in the turret. On the other hand the 5"/54 Mk 45 gun turret used today the crew is not in the turret. I have been more inclined to go with the 5"/54 Mk 45 gun mount crew set-up modified for the Traveller game universe.
Furthermore with the advent of the 12 missiles per ton of MgT to include autoloading equipment. And in light of 8+ years an no comment otherwise my opinion stands...
The 5"/54 Mk 45 gun turret has auto-loader has a twenty round capacity. Once the twenty rounds have been fired four of the six member crew is occupied with reloading the auto-loader magazine from an external magazine.

This is similar to how I see and appears to agree with your idea of the twelve ready missiles being fed to the launcher using an auto-loader. Once the ready missiles are exhausted they have to be reloaded from outside the turret space allocated for the twelve missiles. This is when the gunner and/or ammunition loaders have to shift the missiles from an outside magazine to the on turret magazine.
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phavoc
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby phavoc » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:47 pm

Modern missile systems (replaced by VLS) were fully automatic. The Terrier/Taos systems were older and slower. The twin arm launchers on the Flight 1 Ticonderoga class cruisers, or the single arm launchers of the Perry class frigates is more what Traveller should have.

The missiles are preloaded in the magazine, and the feeding mechanism allowss the operator to select the proper missile for launch.

When the first CT rules came out you had a generic missile, and that was it. Now you have multiple versions and the old model rums smack into the new one. Whether it was an oversight in the rule rewrite or not is an arguest for another thread. But the end result is that the existing model doesn't fit very well wirh common sense or real world technology.
snrdg121408
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:48 pm

Hello Solomani666,
Solomani666 wrote:
kevinknight wrote:A triple turret takes up 1 ton. You can put 3 missile racks in said triple turret. As stated in High Guard each missile rack comes with 12 missiles, for a total of 36 missiles. However, later on it states that 12 missiles take up 1 ton of space.
The Fleet Courier has 2 triple missile turrets and 2 tons of missile storage (24missiles). So my question here would be how many missiles does the fleet courier actually have? Just 24 or 60? And if 60 how are 36 missiles, 3 launchers and a triple turret all crammed into 1 ton of space?
My answer would be 24 because that's all that makes logical sense. But if so then why does it state under missile racks that each comes with 12? Is that simply a mistake that didn't get taken out?
I only allow 3 missiles per rack.
Where can I find the thread that contains kevinknght's comments?

However as phovas mentioned earlier in this thread, this indicates all the rest of this is magical Tardis space, which in my opinion occurs frequently in all the Traveller rule sets.

As a referee or the designer you are allowed to adjust the rules as they pertain to YTU. In MgT you can have up to twelve ready to launch missiles per missile launcher, which allows the turret to fire longer increasing, at least in my mind, the chances of taking out a target over three rounds.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:29 pm

Hello phavoc,
phavoc wrote:Modern missile systems (replaced by VLS) were fully automatic. The Terrier/Taos systems were older and slower. The twin arm launchers on the Flight 1 Ticonderoga class cruisers, or the single arm launchers of the Perry class frigates is more what Traveller should have.

The missiles are preloaded in the magazine, and the feeding mechanism allowss the operator to select the proper missile for launch.

When the first CT rules came out you had a generic missile, and that was it. Now you have multiple versions and the old model rums smack into the new one. Whether it was an oversight in the rule rewrite or not is an arguest for another thread. But the end result is that the existing model doesn't fit very well wirh common sense or real world technology.
Yes, example of the real missile systems used in this post had a magazine that was loaded to capacity prior to getting underway. Once all the missiles in the magazine had been fired there are no missiles that are stored in a separate magazine to refill the launchers magazine. In order to fill the missile magazine the ship has to either return to port or do an underway replenishment.

The only difference I see between CT/MT/TNE/T4/GURPS Traveller/Traveller 20 and MgT is the number of missiles carried in a turret. The older versions, okay CT SS3 does throw a wrench in the mix, allow three per launcher while MgT does twelve. Unfortunately, all versions, in my opinion, cannot fit what is put in a turret since the one d-ton is for the fire control not the turret or the weapons mounted in them.

In my opinion the Traveller missile turret is more along the lines of a 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 with a on board capacity and a reload magazine close by to keep the turret in operation.

I disagree that the MgT or older Traveller versions model does not fit with common sense based real technology. The issue concerns, in my opinion, the simplification of the space requirements needed inside turret. TNE/T4 and GURPS Traveller allow you to design, in my opinion, closer approximations of real turrets than the plug and play design systems of CT, MT, Traveller 20, and MgT.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby phavoc » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:29 pm

While you could store additional missiles in a cargo area, for the most part a warship will always store it's missile capacity in magazines because you'd prefer to shoot them all in combat than have to break off and reload. The magazine feed should be able to feed the entire load to the missile turret, or one magazine could feed multiple launchers.

The problem now is that MGT 2 says you set 1 ton aside for "fire control", then they go back and add in you can store 1 ton of missiles in the turret for free.

In CT the gunner was expected to manhandle a missile reload into the turret. It was being treated like a shell rather than an object that has a rocket motor and explosive warhead. You would think that it would be more important for a gunner to concentrate on firing rather than loading (though I guess it keeps the loaders employed...).
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:45 pm

Hello phavoc,
phavoc wrote:While you could store additional missiles in a cargo area, for the most part a warship will always store it's missile capacity in magazines because you'd prefer to shoot them all in combat than have to break off and reload. The magazine feed should be able to feed the entire load to the missile turret, or one magazine could feed multiple launchers.
A magazine is a specialized cargo space. In the case of the RIM-2 Terrier the ready magazine contained, depending on the ship, forty, eighty, one hundred twenty, or seventy missiles. Once these missiles were used the magazine is empty and the launcher is out of action until reloaded. Unfortunately, I have not be able to determine if there was any additional missiles stored in a separate magazine acting as reloads or for that matter how feed mechanism or many people are required to be in the magazine.

In CT LBB 2 the combat system tracks the number of missiles launched from turrets which has a magazine capable of holding three missiles. If the only weapon system in the turret is a missile rack once all missiles have been launched the launcher needs to be reloaded. To my knowledge there is no component specified as a magazine and so reloads are stowed in a cargo hold that may or may not be conveniently located next to the turret.

In CT LBB 5 HG 1e 1979/HG 2e 1980 there is no requirement to track the number of missiles launched because of the abstract combat system used. However, CT LBB 5 HG 1e 1979 did have rules for missile magazines which was omitted from CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980.

MT does include missile magazines.
The problem now is that MGT 2 says you set 1 ton aside for "fire control", then they go back and add in you can store 1 ton of missiles in the turret for free.

In CT the gunner was expected to manhandle a missile reload into the turret. It was being treated like a shell rather than an object that has a rocket motor and explosive warhead. You would think that it would be more important for a gunner to concentrate on firing rather than loading (though I guess it keeps the loaders employed...).
CT LBB 2 sets aside one d-ton for fire control and allows a turret, turret rotation mechanism, a launcher, the launcher's elevation mechanism, and a three round missile magazine for free too.

You are correct that in CT LBB 2 a gunner is required to reload a missile turret during combat when all missiles have been launched.

CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980 the combat rules totally ignores tracking missiles being used and does not mention the gunner needing to reload missiles.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:46 am

Turrets need variants; ours is the traditional armoured (presumably) cover for personnel and weapons platform visibly above the hull.

A launch arm doesn't take up a tonne, and in fact, arming it increases volume since the action is external, but the operator is some place else.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:32 pm

Hello Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:Turrets need variants; ours is the traditional armoured (presumably) cover for personnel and weapons platform visibly above the hull.
A launch arm doesn't take up a tonne, and in fact, arming it increases volume since the action is external, but the operator is some place else.
My impression is that Traveller turrets are in my opinion based on the RN's 4.5" Mk 8 naval gun or the USN's 5"/54 Mk 45 gun turrets. The exposed/visible portion of the turret houses the weapon and associated components for the weapon. The gun's crew is not located in the turret. The gun's loaders are located in a magazine below the turret to replenish the auto-loading magazine in the gun mount. The USN's 5"/54 Mk 45 gun turrets have a 20-round capacity magazine in the turret which can be exhausted in a bit over one minute of sustained fire. I'm still trying to determine the RN's gun mount's magazine capacity, however the weapon can fire 25 rounds per minute.

My memory was correct that there is an illustration of a Traveller turret, which in TNE is identified as a socket. Unfortunately, my memory appears to have been incorrect that the fire control, a.k.a. gunner's station was outside the turret/socket. The illustration is found on p. 349 of the TNE Mk 1 Mod 1 (December 1993) Core Rule book.

I've also checked out T4 Naval Architect's Manual which per p. 17 places the gunner outside the hull. I hope T4 gunners have an extremely well written will and get huge credits for the job.

You are correct the launch arm itself probably does not take up one d-ton of space, however the components needed to move the missile onto the launch arm and the area that a missile needs around its body add to the space requirement.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:24 pm

One thing absent is rate of fire.

While it could be argued as to how long an energy weapon is active, once you run out of missiles, that's it.

I'd rather have an increased rate of fire of a single arm launcher, than bother with trying to operate three next to each other, which would be like one missile every two minutes, instead of three every six.

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