Missile Turrets

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kevinknight
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Missile Turrets

Postby kevinknight » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:12 pm

A triple turret takes up 1 ton. You can put 3 missile racks in said triple turret. As stated in High Guard each missile rack comes with 12 missiles, for a total of 36 missiles. However, later on it states that 12 missiles take up 1 ton of space.
The Fleet Courier has 2 triple missile turrets and 2 tons of missile storage (24missiles). So my question here would be how many missiles does the fleet courier actually have? Just 24 or 60? And if 60 how are 36 missiles, 3 launchers and a triple turret all crammed into 1 ton of space?
My answer would be 24 because that's all that makes logical sense. But if so then why does it state under missile racks that each comes with 12? Is that simply a mistake that didn't get taken out?
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:53 pm

Maybe the Missile Turret is....
Image




:mrgreen:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby EldritchFire » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:29 pm

The turret takes up 1 interior dT, while the missile racks themselves are externally mounted.

Thus, each rack holds a dozen missiles on the outside of the ship and the 2 tons of missiles on the inside of the ship equals 24 missiles. To answer your question, then, the ship has a total of 60 missiles: 36 on the outside, in the turret, and 24 on the inside taking up 2 tons of space.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:59 pm

EldritchFire wrote:The turret takes up 1 interior dT, while the missile racks themselves are externally mounted.
I tried that too, but it foundered on the pop-up mount. Look at the turret illustration on p24, The entire turret is retracted into the ship for a mere 1 dT extra, so the turret can't be all that big.

I'm afraid we are into phone booth territory...
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby phavoc » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:49 pm

Mongoose has never done a good job with ammunition and missile/torpedo storage. I've always gone back to the CT explanation - a missile launcher has one in the pipe and two ready rounds. So your triple missile turret would have 3 ready rounds and six TOTAL (2 per launcher) reloads. Anything else you start wondering if they are manufactured by Time Lord (TM) Industries - "We fit anything where it shouldn't really be able to fit!".

It's really annoying that **** like this continues to slip through. It's not like it hasn't been called out over and over...and over and over...
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby EldritchFire » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:52 am

phavoc wrote:Mongoose has never done a good job with ammunition and missile/torpedo storage. I've always gone back to the CT explanation - a missile launcher has one in the pipe and two ready rounds. So your triple missile turret would have 3 ready rounds and six TOTAL (2 per launcher) reloads. Anything else you start wondering if they are manufactured by Time Lord (TM) Industries - "We fit anything where it shouldn't really be able to fit!".

Does that hold true for barbettes/bays, too? One salvo in the breech, two salvos in reserve? So a missile barbette has 5 loaded and 10 reserve?
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby phavoc » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:53 am

EldritchFire wrote:Does that hold true for barbettes/bays, too? One salvo in the breech, two salvos in reserve? So a missile barbette has 5 loaded and 10 reserve?
The scale is different for both, so I'd it's not exactly linear. Within the confines of a single displacement ton the rule of thumb works. A missile barbette has a 5 Dton displacement, but only launches 5 missiles at a time. So it's 5 times the size of triple turret, but it's firepower is not even twice what a single turret? A bay just gets more ridiculous in scaling. Bays take up so much tonnage that they should be able to hold a great deal of ammunition. Assuming the standard 3 launchers per Dton, a 100 ton bay can fire 24, so that works out to what, 8 tons?

So yeah... it's broke and needs to be fixed.

I like to play with the concept of magazines. A hit on a turret launcher with no magazine means there's a chance for sympathetic explosions causing internal hits (not to mention wrecking the turret beyond repair). Bays and barbettes are large enough to have proper magazines that, if hit, would channel the explosion externally and thus protect the ship.

So if you go back to the 12 missiles/dton, that should give you 5 missiles in the tube, and about 8 rounds (assuming you want to use the idea of a magazine, which should take up some space). Of the 5 Dtons, you have 3 Dtons available for rounds (and I rounded up...).

For bays, well, give yourself about 60% of the tonnage for the magazine. Everything else is the launcher feeds, magazine armor, assorted machinery, etc. So that's about 28 tons for a 50 ton bay and 56 for a 100 ton bay (or just round up, 30 tons for a 50 ton bay, 60 for a 100 ton bay). You can apply the same rule of thumb to torps. It's all supposition, but it's no worse than what is in the rulebook.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:22 am

Works with sandcasters, no longer with missiles since they upscaled them from twenty to twelve per tonne.

Three in the pipe, and three on call from the magazine, sort of half way up.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby phavoc » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:18 pm

Condottiere wrote:Works with sandcasters, no longer with missiles since they upscaled them from twenty to twelve per tonne.

Three in the pipe, and three on call from the magazine, sort of half way up.
Missiles as ammunition were 12 per Dton in MGT 1.0.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:56 pm

Twenty would be preGoose, where one in the pipe, and two in the turret stems from.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:09 pm

Hello all,

HG 2p. 25/PDF 26: "Turret Weapons Missile Rack: Though missile racks require ammunition and the warheads take time to reach distant targets, they can be very powerful weapons and, when a range of warheads is available, extremely versatile too. Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missile racks on Firmpoints hold four missiles). The missile rack here is equipped with standard missiles."

From the information above the answer appears to be twelve for hull >= 100 d-tons and four on small craft. Of course per Daniel Leary in the RCN series having one ready to launch and then filling the rack would be thirteen and five is the best way to prepare a ship.

HG 2e p. 26/PDF 27: "Missile Barbette: Equipped with multi-launchers, a missile barbette can unleash a flurry of warheads at a target. A missile barbette fires 5 missiles at a time, and holds enough missiles for 5 full salvos (a total of 25 missiles). Missile barbettes on Firmpoints hold eight missiles."

Twenty-five appears to be the number for hulls >=100 d-tons or eight on small craft , unless you load one and then fill the ready slot with a missile bring the total to twenty-six or nine.

I am still trying to find the number of missiles that a CT single turret missile rack can carry. My vague recollection is that one missile is loaded and there are three reloads stowed in the turret.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Jeraa » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:19 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:I am still trying to find the number of missiles that a CT single turret missile rack can carry. My vague recollection is that one missile is loaded and there are three reloads stowed in the turret.
Book 2, page 32 (at least in my copy).
Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Condottiere » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:06 pm

OSHA regulations would disallow having one in the pipe during normal operations.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:49 pm

Condottiere wrote:OSHA regulations would disallow having one in the pipe during normal operations.
Assuming you have OSHA in your specific universe of course. :lol:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:52 pm

Hello Jeraa,
Jeraa wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:I am still trying to find the number of missiles that a CT single turret missile rack can carry. My vague recollection is that one missile is loaded and there are three reloads stowed in the turret.
Book 2, page 32 (at least in my copy).
Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.
Thank you for the page number in LBB 2, which I did look through and missed the reference. The same information is in TTB on page 76.

CT Special Supplement 3 indicates that there three missiles ready to launch and another twelve stowed in the turret. What is not clear is if the gunner or whoever has to manually transfer the twelve missiles. When all the turret missiles have been launched the gunner and/or whoever has to manually reload a nearby cargo hold.magazine.

A civilian vessel would probably fall under OSHA or similar Traveller regulations, however the military has there own rules and regulations. Having one ready to launch under military regulations would probably be an issue if caught.
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:23 am

snrdg121408 wrote: CT Special Supplement 3 indicates that there three missiles ready to launch and another twelve stowed in the turret. What is not clear is if the gunner or whoever has to manually transfer the twelve missiles. When all the turret missiles have been launched the gunner and/or whoever has to manually reload a nearby cargo hold.magazine.

A civilian vessel would probably fall under OSHA or similar Traveller regulations, however the military has there own rules and regulations. Having one ready to launch under military regulations would probably be an issue if caught.
I think we need to take a step back from all these assumptions being made. Some real world correlations make sense, but taken too far just feels odd. Why would there be the assumption of manual loading at all? Why even assume the gunner is anywhere near the turret? Even now we have automatic loading systems. Given the advancements over the TLs seems to warrant shifting our thinking towards automatic loading as well as ready to fire systems. No need to prime the well by hand. :wink:

Just my opinion of course. :mrgreen:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby EldritchFire » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:37 am

Interesting find in the CRB: "Each turret with one or more missile racks holds 12 missiles and costs Cr250000 to refill. It takes one round to reload a missile rack (see page 161)," (pg 157).

The missile rack entry in HG is an exact copy/paste for the first half, then when it starts talking about where to find the rules for missile salvos, the copy/paste stopped. Which is a shame, since the above quote comes right after the 'find missile weapon rules on page xx' blurb.

This might alleviate some of the questions/concerns in this thread. We now know that no matter how many launchers in a turret, there will only be 12 missiles. It also shows that once a rack is empty, it takes an action to reload, meaning snrdg121408 could have a point about flying around with a loaded missile tube.

The bit about Cr250,000 to refill also lets us know that the prices in HG are per ton (12 missiles per ton, and the price for standard missiles is Cr250,000).
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Infojunky » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:35 am

My question is "Why are we still asking these questions in 2nd Edition?"
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby -Daniel- » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:36 am

Infojunky wrote:My question is "Why are we still asking these questions in 2nd Edition?"
That one is easy, because we still have hope. :mrgreen:
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Re: Missile Turrets

Postby Infojunky » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:46 am

-Daniel- wrote:
Infojunky wrote:My question is "Why are we still asking these questions in 2nd Edition?"
That one is easy, because we still have hope. :mrgreen:
Ok, I can live with that....

I keep hitting the same old walls, and the urge to fix sets in and by the time I am done I am way out in left field all by myself. I still have hope that there is some happy median of Book2 and MgT 1st editions construction system.
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