What is the TL of a person?

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EldritchFire
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What is the TL of a person?

Postby EldritchFire » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:42 am

Short-time lurker, first time poster!

The CSC has guided ammo for pistols and rifles available at TL10. However, the guided property is based on the TL of the weapon vs that of the target. If I use guided ammo against a person, what's their effective TL? NIL, and therefore just the inherent DM+1? TL of their armour? 0? Something else?
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby golem64 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:31 am

Depends on which augmentations they've bought.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby EldritchFire » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:41 am

golem64 wrote:Depends on which augmentations they've bought.
And what if they have none?
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby fusor » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:04 am

EldritchFire wrote:The CSC has guided ammo for pistols and rifles available at TL10. However, the guided property is based on the TL of the weapon vs that of the target. If I use guided ammo against a person, what's their effective TL? NIL, and therefore just the inherent DM+1? TL of their armour? 0? Something else?
...where does it say this in the book, exactly?
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby EldritchFire » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:56 am

fusor wrote: ...where does it say this in the book, exactly?
Page 140, second-to-last entry. "Guided rounds become available for rifles and pistols at TL10."
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby -Daniel- » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:59 am

EldritchFire wrote:Short-time lurker, first time poster!

The CSC has guided ammo for pistols and rifles available at TL10. However, the guided property is based on the TL of the weapon vs that of the target. If I use guided ammo against a person, what's their effective TL? NIL, and therefore just the inherent DM+1? TL of their armour? 0? Something else?
I read your question and thought "What TL would you need to create a unique human without cloning another?" LOL

Not the answer I know but I thought it a funny way to look at it. :mrgreen:
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby fusor » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:12 am

EldritchFire wrote:Page 140, second-to-last entry. "Guided rounds become available for rifles and pistols at TL10."
I must have a different edition then. Limb Protection armour is on pg 140 on mine.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby Condottiere » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:32 am

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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:11 am

EldritchFire wrote:If I use guided ammo against a person, what's their effective TL?
Undefined? While waiting for an official clarification we have to use the Referee's common sense.

If you are shooting at hitech covering armour, like a Combat Armour, it should be the TL of the armour.

You could use the TL of the target's camouflage? (With a Hawaii shirt being about TL -5.)

If someone is firing modern weapons at you and you have neither armour, camouflage, nor cover, then it sucks to be you.

An inventive Referee might even give a negative DM for unexpected situations. The guided ammo is probably programmed for a specific target, such as a vehicle or a person, and might not work well if fired at any other target, e.g. archaic armour or a dog. The ammo for an Anti-Materiel Rifle might not want to target an unarmoured person.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby Nathan Brazil » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:15 am

Perhaps it provides no bonus at all or that of being TL 0

As an example In the Buck Rogers XXV rpg (AD&D 2e, sort of), most guns (I think they were gyrojet rocket) in that game had ammo with inherent ECCM and guidance and most personal armor had inherent ECM (yes that is the correct phraseology here) which effectively canceled each other out
EXCEPT
Buck's used old revolvers with "dumb" bullets that had no guidance and could not be deflected by ECM built into armor. This actually gave him like a +4 bonus to hit (on the old THACO system.

So in this case if you want it to act/react against something a naked person is TL 0 (No technology) or perhaps it does not work because in this case there is no tech to react to.
0401 X55A670-A S he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+ 733
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:27 am

Against an un-armored person is personally give the guided ammo the maximum +6 to hit, and if they wear armor the TL of that is used to determine bonus.

I'm not sure armor without builtin computer would protect against the smart bonus though.... On the other hand, it might be a passive thing resulting from the materials used and such..
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:45 am

fusor wrote:
EldritchFire wrote:Page 140, second-to-last entry. "Guided rounds become available for rifles and pistols at TL10."
I must have a different edition then. Limb Protection armour is on pg 140 on mine.
Do you have the newly released book made for 2nd edition traveller (front cover is a wall covered by weapons) or the 1st edition black book with yellow text cover?
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby arcador » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:00 pm

I use the common sense ruling AnotherDilber suggest. My "smart ammo" work with a conjunction of a weapon modification, and vs certain types of target. Recently gave the party this:

Code: Select all

AN - 154 A-CAU
Anti-Combat Armor Unit

TL 10; Range 150; Damage 3D; 5 kg; Mag cost 120; Mag: 30; Auto 2, AP 3, Bulky, Smart

Smart TL 12 vs vacc suit type armors (requires special ammo). Automatically locks suit, predicts movement and locates armor weak points. Requires database with armor schematics.

Fire modes: Burst and Auto only

comment: it's a custom piece of weaponry that does not in any way means to be an "ultimate" solution.
Also, attacking an unarmored target with +6 to hit will often result in direct kill/incapacitation.

p.s. to be honest, I play Traveller with a lot of details not counted as rules, unlike how I played DnD - which was more like a board game. I like how easy is to add such things in the game without breaking it.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby EldritchFire » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:23 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Against an un-armored person is personally give the guided ammo the maximum +6 to hit, and if they wear armor the TL of that is used to determine bonus.

I'm not sure armor without builtin computer would protect against the smart bonus though.... On the other hand, it might be a passive thing resulting from the materials used and such..
This is what I'm leaning towards, using the TL of the armour. I don't see it as the armour having a built-in ECM computer, but that higher tech armours just provide better protection, and the smart ammo needs to work 'harder' to find that perfect firing solution.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:07 pm

arcador wrote:I use the common sense ruling AnotherDilber suggest. My "smart ammo" work with a conjunction of a weapon modification, and vs certain types of target. Recently gave the party this:

Code: Select all

AN - 154 A-CAU
Anti-Combat Armor Unit

TL 10; Range 150; Damage 3D; 5 kg; Mag cost 120; Mag: 30; Auto 2, AP 3, Bulky, Smart

Smart TL 12 vs vacc suit type armors (requires special ammo). Automatically locks suit, predicts movement and locates armor weak points. Requires database with armor schematics.

Fire modes: Burst and Auto only

comment: it's a custom piece of weaponry that does not in any way means to be an "ultimate" solution.
Also, attacking an unarmored target with +6 to hit will often result in direct kill/incapacitation.

p.s. to be honest, I play Traveller with a lot of details not counted as rules, unlike how I played DnD - which was more like a board game. I like how easy is to add such things in the game without breaking it.
Nice piece of gear :)

I agree on the adding part, I also love how the base system is quite simple and rules-light, with lots of room for adding extra stuff. It could be as simple as adding gear, like your gun above or the stuff in Traveller: Cowboys vs. Xenomorphs, or it could be the addition of new rules, such as more detailed duel-rules for a martial arts-setting, or anything really!


EldritchFire wrote:
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Against an un-armored person is personally give the guided ammo the maximum +6 to hit, and if they wear armor the TL of that is used to determine bonus.

I'm not sure armor without builtin computer would protect against the smart bonus though.... On the other hand, it might be a passive thing resulting from the materials used and such..
This is what I'm leaning towards, using the TL of the armour. I don't see it as the armour having a built-in ECM computer, but that higher tech armours just provide better protection, and the smart ammo needs to work 'harder' to find that perfect firing solution.
Yeah, sounds reasonable. Newer materials give better protection, plus they might have some builtin passive stealth abilities that prevent the smart ammo from getting a perfect lock-on.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby golem64 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:45 pm

EldritchFire wrote:
golem64 wrote:Depends on which augmentations they've bought.
And what if they have none?
Maybe the tech level of their homeworld. But better would be the highest tech level of the service they mustered out of or participated in during their career?
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby EldritchFire » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:49 pm

golem64 wrote:
EldritchFire wrote:
golem64 wrote:Depends on which augmentations they've bought.
And what if they have none?
Maybe the tech level of their homeworld. But better would be the highest tech level of the service they mustered out of or participated in during their career?
How does one's upbringing affect the guidance system of a bullet?
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby fusor » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:06 pm

EldritchFire wrote:How does one's upbringing affect the guidance system of a bullet?
"Ew, I'm not going to hit that guy, he's a stinky peasant!" *bullet drops out of sky* ;)

Though seriously, look at it from a common sense point of view. It's a bit weird to depend on the TL of the target but I guess if their armour has no built-in defences against smart bullets (something to confuse the target lock) then it should get the maximum DM to hit - if the armour does have the capacity to stymie the lock then it could cancel out the +DMs or even inflict negative DMs if it's designed to throw off that specific kind of lock. That's pretty much the only practical way to make a guided bullet more or less likely to hit.

But really, the bullet has to establish a lock. If it can do that (and keep the lock) then it'll be significantly more likely to hit - if not, then it won't. So countermeasures need to either counter the lock, or prevent it from tracking the target once locked.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby Jame Rowe » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:42 pm

-Daniel- wrote:
EldritchFire wrote:Short-time lurker, first time poster!

The CSC has guided ammo for pistols and rifles available at TL10. However, the guided property is based on the TL of the weapon vs that of the target. If I use guided ammo against a person, what's their effective TL? NIL, and therefore just the inherent DM+1? TL of their armour? 0? Something else?
I read your question and thought "What TL would you need to create a unique human without cloning another?" LOL

Not the answer I know but I thought it a funny way to look at it. :mrgreen:
I had the same thought, and my answer is "TL 0."

Personally I'd go with the armor and/or augments they have.
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Re: What is the TL of a person?

Postby golem64 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:42 pm

EldritchFire wrote:
golem64 wrote:
EldritchFire wrote:
And what if they have none?
Maybe the tech level of their homeworld. But better would be the highest tech level of the service they mustered out of or participated in during their career?
How does one's upbringing affect the guidance system of a bullet?
Sorry, took tech level of a person a little too literally.

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