TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby AndrewW » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:37 am

fusor wrote:DonM was the only other person I can think of who could have had any kind of authority to decide on canon changes that wasn't Marc. So if it wasn't him or Marc, then who could it have been? I really don't understand why everyone's so determined to hide this person.
Ok, normally I would have just pointed out the thread to him and let him decide for himself to answer or not, but that is not possible in this case.

I've been thinking about it and decided he probably would have, I have gotten him onto this forum to answer things a couple of times before.

It was Don McKinney, who sadly passed away in December 2015.

I was reluctant to do so since he's not around to have his own say in the matter.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Condottiere » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:19 am

Anything can be in High Guard; whether everything should be in Three Eye is another matter.

Collector ship could be like the Nautilus, unique and once the Captain dies, destroyed.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:45 am

Reynard wrote:the collector system is a higher TL and not often used because of some disadvantages.
Time. Those particles take a week to collect, and your ship cannot expend thrust; it has to be moved about by ship's boats, like the Annic Nova. Conventionally-fuelled ships can just tank up on hydrogen fuel, take off, head out to the 100 D limit and Jump in a matter of hours.

Time is money, in commerce, and so collectors would be useful for neither the military nor for commercial ships, not when there are deadlines to be met or costs to be paid.

Of course, when you have a mission which involves neither deadlines nor meeting costs, such as a survey mission, you could park your big ship out past the 100D limit and gather up particles while your ship's boats and sensor drones do their job of scanning the planet for a week. The big ship takes readings of the system and long-range scans of the mainworld, other planets and the main star, and then everybody comes back and the ship moves on.

The whole feel of the campaign would be very different to other kinds of campaigns such as the trade game, especially if you decide to throw in the space folding drive instead of Jump: but it would still be Traveller.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Reynard » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:47 am

"Bloody hell, if TV shows can have a fixed canon then why the heck can't a roleplaying game manage it?"

Really? TV shows love changing canon if it seems to bring in new audiences. A couple of the worst offenders have to be Star Trek and Dr. Who with histories a bit longer than Traveller yet any continuity bibles they may have had were dumped in the dust bin a long time ago. We also see that with DC and Marvel switching reality in their books, shows and movies almost on a monthly basis. Ever see the Superhero RPGs based on these two regularly scrape their game books because the entire universe goes in a ninety degree tangent? TV shows and movies with sequels are all good(bad?) at changing reality if it suits them. Traveller shows more stability even over several editions and changes are mostly experimentation with game mechanics. Look at Battle Tech or Shadowrun and tell me those two wonderful systems don't have massive changes every few years.

Collectors were part of Traveller before some fans of the game were born. Mongoose decided to bring it back without completely revising canon. That's the way to go. It's there if you want to add it to your system. It's not unbalanced or a game breaker if added to a regular game. Traveller is about choices.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:13 am

Condottiere wrote:Collector ship could be like the Nautilus
You mean, "forming part of an extensive fleet of ships operating in remote parts of solar systems where nobody thinks to look, and this one is just one of the smaller ships that fell foul of bad luck and drifted into the public limelight?"
Jules Verne never really thought things through when he only spoke of one ship.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Reynard » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:32 am

I think the Nautilus is a fine example for the Annic Nova (and even the Rock) . These are one shot unique devices that exist for some oh wow factor then need to fade out at the end of the story for a touch of drama.

Of course we all want to see the Nautilus saved and change the 19th century and history from then on as well as reverse engineering the martian tripods. What we're seeing with Traveller 2e is the technology of the Annic Nova is real and possible. Not entirely as good as normal jump tech energy collection but usable. I think though the Nautilus would be closer to a TL 16+ vessel for the Awesome Tech factor.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:14 pm

In the original JTAS Annic Nova adventure there was a section at the end about where else a ship of the Annic Nova class could be encountered.
No idea who builds them but there is a tantalizing hint that the race may be psionic - some immediately thought of the Droyne, but consider this.

In the cages in Research Station Gamma there are some intelligent, psionic aliens (race unknown) kidnapped by INI from a world outside the Imperial borders.

Could this race have something to do with the Annic Nova.

Couple of points about the original - it is capable of jump 3, having both a jump 2 and a jump 3 engine; the collector takes 1-6 weeks to collect enough to power a jump.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:01 pm

Just to clarify - when I'm discus "canon" - I am pointing out alignment to T5 - which was published well before MgT2 an established "canon". At least, established canon for that point :)

Therefore,

Mesons are only spinal/main weapons (not bays).
Particles are barbettes and higher only.
9G dreadnought is fine.
And I'm pretty sure fusion does NOT come in turret size - I'll double check styrygg.

Granted, some things were not duplicated or were but put under high technology (ex. Quad turrets and Collectors).

Yes I think traveller-3I would do well to have vision document with axioms such as:
No shields
No teleporters
Jump tech or Jump gates only
Etc etc

Unique exceptions will always exist however. Annic Nova does not mean collectors exist outside of Annic Nova (until it is otherwise decided that they do)
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:21 pm

Nerhesi wrote:Annic Nova does not mean collectors exist outside of Annic Nova (until it is otherwise decided that they do)
Their inclusion in High Guard 2e, along with listings for their tonnage, cost and other requirements, means that it has been decided that they officially do.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:33 pm

AndrewW wrote:It was Don McKinney, who sadly passed away in December 2015.

I was reluctant to do so since he's not around to have his own say in the matter.
Thanks for clarifying. See, that didn't hurt did it? ;)

Ironically it means that no further clarification about these things is possible from him though. On the plus side it'd probably choke the CotI mob's rage somewhat if anyone told them.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:54 pm

I doubt that since - and this may come as a bit of a shock - Don sometimes got stuff wrong too. As do I, as did Hans.

Marc's novel and T5 are redefining the OTU, I am glad MgT has opted for a much wider range of technologies to make it easier to build your own setting.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:03 pm

alex_greene wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:Annic Nova does not mean collectors exist outside of Annic Nova (until it is otherwise decided that they do)
Their inclusion in High Guard 2e, along with listings for their tonnage, cost and other requirements, means that it has been decided that they officially do.
I think we may be speaking past each other Alex.

High-Guard is not strictly 3I. Everything outside of the High Technology chapter can be taken as such. Items from high technology chapter are clearly identified as non-existant or rare within 3I.

Therefore, Energy Shields, Deflector Shields, Pulse Canons and so on are in High Guard. However, as they are in the High Technology Chapter, they are NOT in 3I or their appearance would be rare (rarer than black globes), more appropriate to unique ships or anomalies.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:09 pm

Nerhesi wrote:
alex_greene wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:Annic Nova does not mean collectors exist outside of Annic Nova (until it is otherwise decided that they do)
Their inclusion in High Guard 2e, along with listings for their tonnage, cost and other requirements, means that it has been decided that they officially do.
High-Guard is not strictly 3I.
I read the original adventure, and yes, Annic Nova is set in the Spinward Marches. Annic Nova was a steampunk spaceship limping its way through Regina Subsector, until its crew all got sick and died, possibly from something they picked up on Victoria. The deceased alien crew they found were humanoids, species unknown, so far unencountered but definitely 3I.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:13 pm

Nerhesi wrote:I think we may be speaking past each other Alex.
From the original context they were present in, it's obvious that Collectors are not standard or even experimental technology for any of the major races in the 3I either so they are clearly not available as parts for ship construction. They may be a technology that exists in the setting, but that doesn't mean that they're available for anyone to use (it's no different from any Ancient tech presented in HG 2e being available for 3I ship design. Interstellar teleportation portals and pocket universes have appeared in Traveller books before as Ancient tech, but that doesn't mean that they should be available for any of the 3I races to build currently - even if power and volumes are provided). They're very clearly an Alternative Technology.

I think anyone who insists otherwise is just being stubborn and argumentative about it.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:19 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:I doubt that since - and this may come as a bit of a shock - Don sometimes got stuff wrong too. As do I, as did Hans.

Marc's novel and T5 are redefining the OTU, I am glad MgT has opted for a much wider range of technologies to make it easier to build your own setting.
I haven't read the Novel. Anything OTU redefining that hasn't been mentioned thus far? :)
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby -Daniel- » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:31 pm

Nerhesi wrote:Just to clarify - when I'm discus "canon" - I am pointing out alignment to T5 - which was published well before MgT2 an established "canon". At least, established canon for that point :)
Just to clarify, I didn't buy T5 nor do I plan to buy it at this time. I bought Mongoose Traveller and at no point did it say T5 was required. So with that in mind, I think we need to use care in saying T5 is the only viable source for all things "canon". :D
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:40 pm

Nerhesi wrote:
Sigtrygg wrote:I doubt that since - and this may come as a bit of a shock - Don sometimes got stuff wrong too. As do I, as did Hans.

Marc's novel and T5 are redefining the OTU, I am glad MgT has opted for a much wider range of technologies to make it easier to build your own setting.
I haven't read the Novel. Anything OTU redefining that hasn't been mentioned thus far? :)
I really hope this is a joke...
yes, there are lots of things in it that redefine the OTU.

I am absolutely flabbergasted that someone speaks with the voice of authority about canon matters and yet has not read the single most canon defining document - the novel.

By the way it a good read- some very positive reviews from people who know nothing about Traveller.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:43 pm

-Daniel- wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:Just to clarify - when I'm discus "canon" - I am pointing out alignment to T5 - which was published well before MgT2 an established "canon". At least, established canon for that point :)
Just to clarify, I didn't buy T5 nor do I plan to buy it at this time. I bought Mongoose Traveller and at no point did it say T5 was required. So with that in mind, I think we need to use care in saying T5 is the only viable source for all things "canon". :D
Depends what you mean by canon.

If you mean setting detail canon for the Third Imperium then T5 and Marc's novel trump everything - with the caveat that T5 hasn't covered capital class ships yet. So perhaps MgT HG can have some influence into what goes into the capital ship rules for T5 (if they ever see the light of day).
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:56 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:I am absolutely flabbergasted that someone speaks with the voice of authority about canon matters and yet has not read the single most canon defining document - the novel.

By the way it a good read- some very positive reviews from people who know nothing about Traveller.
Why should anyone have to read a novel to figure out what is canon in an RPG? (and the novel released after T5 was, I might add. No doubt Marc changed his mind about things yet again in that). The changes in that should be summarised and made available for anyone doing anything official with the RPG.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Reynard » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:59 pm

For once I concur with fusor. If the information in a Traveller novel is important enough to update canon significantly then it needs to be added one way or another if only as a forum topic.

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