TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

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Sigtrygg
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:08 pm

I think you are missing the point - the setting, which is the OTU, is Marc's, he decides what it is.
The novel and T5 are the closest insights we have to that current vision.

If you want to play in the OTU read them. If you want to play in the MgT AOTU fine - don't. If you want to use the MgT rules for your own setting then you don't need them.

But if you want to know what the OTU is really like the novel is the place to start.

Do you want The Third Imperium roleplaying game powered my Mongoose, or do you want Traveller?
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:11 pm

What I don't understand is that this game has had nearly 40 years of development and practical play - you'd think it'd just be a matter of collating everything that had gone before, leaving out the things that didn't work, and tidying it up. So why is MWM suddenly deciding to make significant changes to what's gone before in T5 and his novel (without making it obvious what these changes are)? He's had 40 years to work on this, and now he says "actually, everything you've been doing is wrong and this is what my vision of the setting is supposed to be"? That's on a par with Lucas saying that Han was supposed to shoot first, which totally changes what his character is like.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:15 pm

Nerhesi wrote:I haven't read the Novel. Anything OTU redefining that hasn't been mentioned thus far? :)
Have you ever read Expedition To Zhodane, LBB Adventure 6? There's a technological device which was introduced there, which redefined Traveller from the outset. A more advanced form of that technology was introduced in Secrets Of The Ancients.

It's an overlay machine.
Jonathan Bland is a Decider, empowered by the Emperor himself to deal with the inevitable crises of empire. In the service of the Empire, he has killed more people than anyone in the history of Humanity, to save a hundred times as many. He died centuries ago, but they re-activate his recorded personality whenever a new threat appears. When the crisis is over, they expect he will meekly return to oblivion.
He has other ideas.
The technology, as far as I can see, allows an empty meat vessel to be overlaid with Jonathan Bland's personality, INT, EDU and skills, then on completion of the mission his memories are recorded and stored with the recorded personality until the next time.

I think Rock, from Adventure 6, was the ship of one of Bland's predecessors.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:18 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:I think you are missing the point - the setting, which is the OTU, is Marc's, he decides what it is.
The novel and T5 are the closest insights we have to that current vision.
Yes, but as I said, after 30 years for fans to be told "actually my vision is rather different from what you've been playing" is like George Lucas expecting people to be happy with all the changes he made to the original Star Wars films 30 years after the fact. And then we saw what happened with his "vision" during the prequels. And yet strangely a lot of people are happier with him being out of the loop in the The Force Awakens and Rogue One.
Do you want The Third Imperium roleplaying game powered my Mongoose, or do you want Traveller?
Honestly? I want MWM to stay out of it. I think he's just making a bad situation worse with T5 and his novel (neither of which needed to be made). His attempts to "bring everything together" has only caused more division - T5's added a whole bunch of new and totally unnecessary elements to the game and barely any setting information, while his novel's apparently changed elements of the setting quite significantly. What was needed was for the stuff that was already there to be collated and updated, not new things added to it to sow more confusion.

Again, much like George Lucas.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:26 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:I think you are missing the point - the setting, which is the OTU, is Marc's, he decides what it is.
And since you're not Marc Miller, pbuh ...
Sigtrygg wrote:Do you want The Third Imperium roleplaying game powered my Mongoose, or do you want Traveller?
Traveller, set in the 3I, with Mongoose rules.
Matthew and AndrewW, among the other authors and contributors, wrote a considerable amount of new material into this setting, and I ought to let you know that they had Marc looking over their shoulders the whole time. If there was anything The Great Maker didn't like, anything at all, it didn't make it into the CSC or High Guard.
So what you're looking at is pretty much canon. It's just never cropped up in your adventures so far because, until recently, nobody ever saw this tech before until now.
What if you're looking at a time in the 3I when the Aslan, the Imperials, the Zhodani, the Hivers and even the Droyne, look up and see new aliens that they've never seen before? Aliens that had just made it in from Spinward or Trailing, or come in from the Rim boasting of their motherships out there, billion ton vessels parked in the empty hexes gathering cosmic particles to fuel their next Jump, sending out their smaller Jump vessels equipped with weird new FTL drives nobody's ever seen before.
Aliens, explorers, who just completed a Jump from parts of the galaxy beyond the Great Rift, or from a different Arm of the galaxy.
Or even from another galaxy, or another dimension.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:31 pm

alex_greene wrote:So what you're looking at is pretty much canon. It's just never cropped up in your adventures so far because, until recently, nobody ever saw this tech before until now.
What if you're looking at a time in the 3I when the Aslan, the Imperials, the Zhodani, the Hivers and even the Droyne, look up and see new aliens that they've never seen before? Aliens that had just made it in from Spinward or Trailing, or come in from the Rim boasting of their motherships out there, billion ton vessels parked in the empty hexes gathering cosmic particles to fuel their next Jump, sending out their smaller Jump vessels equipped with weird new FTL drives nobody's ever seen before.
Aliens, explorers, who just completed a Jump from parts of the galaxy beyond the Great Rift, or from a different Arm of the galaxy.
Or even from another galaxy, or another dimension.
That's your 3I - it's an "ATU". That's not the 3I.

I could say that I want to drop Aliens and Predators in to the Star Wars universe and replace the Force with fantasy magic, but that wouldn't be the Star Wars universe. But if I want to find the official backstory for Princess Leia or what the official history of Coruscant is, I'd look sources from the Star Wars Universe. I wouldn't want them to say "do what you like" or "here's a bunch of options, pick your favourite" - I want there to be a single, definitive answer.
Last edited by fusor on Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:36 pm

fusor wrote:it's an "ATU". That's not the 3I.
So's yours. You just slavishly adhere to more rules from sources outside of the core rulebook, CSC and High Guard.
fusor wrote:I want there to be a single, definitive answer.
Which is not possible.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:43 pm

alex_greene wrote:
fusor wrote:it's an "ATU". That's not the 3I.
So's yours. You just slavishly adhere to more rules from sources outside of the core rulebook, CSC and High Guard.
I haven't mentioned anything about what I do in my games here. And what I do isn't relevant to this question, neither is what you or anyone else does. I want concrete information from the source. If Marc insists on changing 40 years of things in his new material then he needs to definitively tell us what has changed. As it is, T5 is such a mess that it's hard to figure that out (and at this stage if a change is found then it may be intentional or it may just be because he forgot to edit something),and the novel complicates things further because that may even be different from what's in T5. And with a whole bunch of people around him pulling things in every direction it's even harder to figure out.

Either Marc needs to get explicit about it, or Marc needs to step back and let others actually do the work without his interference and let THEM be explicit about it. But someone needs to be clear here.

fusor wrote:I want there to be a single, definitive answer.
Which is not possible.
It's extremely possible. Someone just needs to say "this is in, this is out", officially and clearly - not by implication, not hidden away in novels or other things, they just need to make a damn list and put it out there.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:55 pm

Well which Canon is Canon? T5 only? The novel? a combination, but if there is a conflict which one holds true?

Why T5? I have a player with the original Traveller material from the 80's. And if Marc Miller is adding and changing things from version to version then is it safe to say canon has changed? It certainly has for particle beams.
The Harrier from Pirates of Drinax is now a custom ship since particle beams were removed from Turret weapons and allowed only under Alternate technology.

What is Canon seems to be on a bit of a sliding scale. And the other issue is the march of time. Depending on what year you are running your game new technology might have been released. Maybe Annic Nova was discovered in 1095 and now 10 years later there is a new engine on the market. Heck, Pirates of Drinax has every adventure start with the phrase It is assumed to be 1105. My group is almost into 1107 because of all the Travelling and adventure they have undertaken doing the first half dozen adventures.

So a definitive 3I list may need to be more of a timeline.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby -Daniel- » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:00 pm

I just read the posts to catch up on this most resent conversation. To answer Sigtrygg's question, 3I or MgT I think it is both. There is no reason to say MgT isn't Traveller or that it is not using the 3I setting. I will also point out that calling T5 the OTU setting is also faulty. By both MWM and Sigtrygg's admittance, T5 is a new changed setting using mostly the OTU stuff with new and changed things in it. If we want to be real honest, the OTU is what was in the GDW First edition of the game. 3rd party and new editions all changed the setting so it was no longer the "Original Traveller Universe" but rather a living breathing thing that changed over time. I also do not think that was a bad thing, things change and grow it they are healthy.

Now what I do agree with Sigtrygg on is a simple statement. MWM has presented his latest version of the Traveller 3I setting in T5 and his first novel. So If I want my game to match MWM's vision those would be great sources to look at. But if I want to really only to play 3I in the OTU setting then LBB is my choice. T5 should not be looked at as OTU, rather it is a New Traveller Universe, because each of the editions after the LBB have changed things one way or another.

With that in mind, the truth, for me, is I am interested in playing the game I bought, MgT set in the 3I as presented in MgTs version of the rules. But like fusor, I would like a bit less wishy-washy and more clear answers to many setting questions. I am a big boy and know once I buy the game I get to run it how I want at my table. I do not need a publisher to tell me that. I want the publisher to present to me a clear and clean vision of the core setting and also to clearly mark items/rules that are optional or seen as outside the core setting. I would also ask the publisher to strive to be consistent within that edition's vision and setting. Thus why I do not mind if T5 does not agree with my LBB setting or my MgT setting because T5 is also an Alternate to the OTU.

And this is why I have said to fusor that I do not think there will ever be a single document that outlines everything for the 3i across editions. Rather the best we could hope for is one that outlines the setting as viewed through the vision of that editions publisher.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:03 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:Well which Canon is Canon? T5 only? The novel? a combination, but if there is a conflict which one holds true?

Why T5? I have a player with the original Traveller material from the 80's. And if Marc Miller is adding and changing things from version to version then is it safe to say canon has changed? It certainly has for particle beams.
The Harrier from Pirates of Drinax is now a custom ship since particle beams were removed from Turret weapons and allowed only under Alternate technology.
Which exactly illustrates why it's such a mess right now.
What is Canon seems to be on a bit of a sliding scale. And the other issue is the march of time. Depending on what year you are running your game new technology might have been released. Maybe Annic Nova was discovered in 1095 and now 10 years later there is a new engine on the market. Heck, Pirates of Drinax has every adventure start with the phrase It is assumed to be 1105. My group is almost into 1107 because of all the Travelling and adventure they have undertaken doing the first half dozen adventures.

So a definitive 3I list may need to be more of a timeline.
A timeline would definitely be nice - but should every adventure be considered part of the canon?

(the hilarious thing about things like Annic Nova and the original Secret of the Ancients was that it seemed the authorities were OK with the PCs keeping this wacky alien tech that they'd found. Realistically they probably would have confiscated the Annic Nova and torn it apart to find out everything about it, if not also find out where it came from and who made it. And then maybe they could invent a way to make Collectors in the 3I, which would revolutionise ship design. But it seems that didn't happen since the technology has never showed up since then in previous editions).
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby AndrewW » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:07 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:Why T5? I have a player with the original Traveller material from the 80's. And if Marc Miller is adding and changing things from version to version then is it safe to say canon has changed? It certainly has for particle beams.
The Harrier from Pirates of Drinax is now a custom ship since particle beams were removed from Turret weapons and allowed only under Alternate technology.
Well, actually the Harrier already did break the rules in High Guard. The new version of the Harrier however doesn't.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:36 pm

Can I just clarify something:

OTU does not mean original traveller universe - it means Official Traveller Universe.

And as been stated many times by others - the OTU at any given time is what MWM decides it is - he owns it.

Traveller, the original three LBB set was a toolkit for referees to design their own settings, the folks at GDW used the Imperium as the big far away empire and later filled in some details, first it became the Third Imperium and then came a list of Emperors. Here's the thing - the setting did not follow all the rules as written.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:50 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:Can I just clarify something:

OTU does not mean original traveller universe - it means Official Traveller Universe.

And as been stated many times by others - the OTU at any given time is what MWM decides it is - he owns it.
Nobody's arguing about that. What i'm saying is that he needs to stop screwing around and make up his bloody mind what is in the OTU, and perhaps have some care about how what he decides changes everything that's come before. The problem is that MWM is so disconnected from the game's fanbase that when he finally came up with what was supposedly the "ultimate Traveller" in T5 it left a lot of people scratching their heads at what he was even trying to do (the ones who could even understand it, that is - and it also disappointed a huge number of people who fell for the hype), and he seems to not care in the slightest about whether what he does screws up anything that came before.

Sure, he can do what he wants, but he needs to take some responsibility for that too. Not just change things and expect everyone else to figure it out.
Traveller, the original three LBB set was a toolkit for referees to design their own settings, the folks at GDW used the Imperium as the big far away empire and later filled in some details, first it became the Third Imperium and then came a list of Emperors. Here's the thing - the setting did not follow all the rules as written.
Ideally, what I'd like from Traveller is a generic SF toolkit with all the possible options. I want every kind of FTL drive, STL drive, weapon, sensor, hull material, etc that they can throw in there. I want AI and cybernetics and genetic engineering and uploading intelligences. And I want intelligent articles about the effects of all of those things on a setting. I want all the options available to make my own setting (heck, the D&D 5e core manuals do that really well for fantasy).

What I'd like from the 3I is to have all the stuff that is specific to the 3I clearly delineated from that and separated out from that. And I want the setting details all straightened out and made consistent both internally and with the tech assumptions, and compiled and presented clearly in one place.

It doesn't have to be "do you want one or the other". It's possible to have both, but nobody's been inclined to do either so far (TNE's FF&S came closest to the former, at least)
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:05 pm

There are three competing elements:
rules system
technical architecture
setting

Rules come and go
Technical architecture can be setting specific or generic with lots of options
Setting should be built from the technical architecture picked from the options.

I agree that FF&S is probably the best traveller iteration of this, but there are others, GURPS has had some pretty generic design systems over the years and I don't know if you have seen Stuff for EABA.

I think Mongoose have done a great job in presenting options in the new High Guard.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:06 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Nerhesi wrote: I haven't read the Novel. Anything OTU redefining that hasn't been mentioned thus far? :)
I really hope this is a joke...
yes, there are lots of things in it that redefine the OTU.

I am absolutely flabbergasted that someone speaks with the voice of authority about canon matters and yet has not read the single most canon defining document - the novel.

By the way it a good read- some very positive reviews from people who know nothing about Traveller.
A great non-sequitur.

I'm flabbergasted that you believe my lack of knowledge of a months old novel set in between 300 and 700 is somehow funny! Especially compared to your lack of understanding about traveller canon "changing" in T5 which has been out for a while? Meson bays are no longer Canon as of T5 (they're only Main or Spinal Weapons). Collectors are in play! Dogfighting is canon! Fighters can attack capital ships without fear of reprisal due to ultra-advanced firm points firing from range bands where they cannot be hit due to their size!

I think folks need to take a step back and realise, as Matthew has stated before, Canon is what Marc (and whomever is part of that crew) want. As designer, contributor, whatever - when you are told "X is canon" - thats what you go with. It's not about You reading every single source of canon, because as you've just pointed out, it keeps changing. So you try to adhere to Canon, and sometimes that changes on the fly due to direction.

At which point, you argue, you compromise, you deal.. but you move on.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Nerhesi wrote:I think folks need to take a step back and realise, as Matthew has stated before, Canon is what Marc (and whomever is part of that crew) want. As designer, contributor, whatever - when you are told "X is canon" - thats what you go with. It's not about You reading every single source of canon, because as you've just pointed out, it keeps changing. So you try to adhere to Canon, and sometimes that changes on the fly due to direction.
But that's exactly why Traveller is such a mess. It shouldn't "keep changing" on the whims of its creator, and it shouldn't be a set of moving goalposts that everyone has to struggle to keep up with. All the game has ever needed was consolidation, not a total revision and lots of new stuff threw in (which is what we seem to keep getting with every new edition).

At this point I think I'd prefer it if Mongoose pulled out of Traveller and made their own Legend-type generic SF RPG based on the old OGL. At least then they'd have control over things then, rather than having to bow to the capricious whims of distant and easily-distracted designer.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Belisknar » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:28 pm

fusor wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:I think folks need to take a step back and realise, as Matthew has stated before, Canon is what Marc (and whomever is part of that crew) want. As designer, contributor, whatever - when you are told "X is canon" - thats what you go with. It's not about You reading every single source of canon, because as you've just pointed out, it keeps changing. So you try to adhere to Canon, and sometimes that changes on the fly due to direction.
But that's exactly why Traveller is such a mess. It shouldn't "keep changing" on the whims of its creator, and it shouldn't be a set of moving goalposts that everyone has to struggle to keep up with.

At this point I think I'd prefer it if Mongoose pulled out of Traveller and made their own Legend-type generic SF RPG based on the old OGL. At least then they'd have control over things then, rather than having to bow to the capricious whims of distant and easily-distracted designer.
The problem there is that they have a great system now with a property that they have been given quite a bit of room to play in. Why mess with that?

Sure they have some restrictions but I'd imagine it's probably better than most people who have to work under a licensed property.

Just because some of us don't have a defined list of what exists in a particular version of the universe that spawned the system doesn't mean that Mongoose should give up the opportunity to make great content in this universe that they have been given the opportunity to create in. Even suggesting that idea, in my opinion is incredibly short sighted.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:31 pm

I am going to stop posting.

this is an edit because I can not delete.
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Re: TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

Postby Reynard » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:44 pm

Geez, another thread goes completely off topic for another fusor rant fest!

People (me included and I'm trying hard not to) let's stop being drawn in to these non-topic marc hating, Traveller bashing diatribes that have been train wrecking nearly every topic on this forum.

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