High Guard - On The Way

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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby AndrewW » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:16 am

captainjack23 wrote:1. Is the pdf a pre release playtest document , or just an electronic early release to allow last minute sprucing up of the print version ? Because its really not clear if its a worm infested mass of errors and typos, or a final version released for public QA ?
It's a release, but with more eyes looking over things a few things have been found. Should be getting an update before too long. Nothing major, a few things on the ship stats to be consistent (not all the ship stats where presented the same way). A few corrections to the ship stats. Some minor tweaking.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby mancerbear » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:20 am

Despite the complaints, I would just like to go on record here as saying that I quite like the High Guard PDF. I know how hard it is to avoid errata in a published product, and I would much rather a product be published as a PDF to give everyone the chance to notice something wrong then find it in the print version. I don't see a problem with this, not in the least.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:24 am

Apparently criticism of the way Mongoose does things and suggesting ways to make it better in the future is not allowed on this board, since someone has removed all my posts on this thread (I wasn't insulting, rude, or being nasty to anyone, just criticising the process).

I guess Matt just wants to hear nice things about his products. And people wonder Mongoose doesn't get the message that they need to improve things when they just delete criticism.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby AndrewW » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:28 am

fusor wrote:Apparently criticism of the way Mongoose does things and suggesting ways to make it better in the future is not allowed on this board, since someone has removed all my posts on this thread (I wasn't insulting, rude, or being nasty to anyone, just criticising the process).
Criticism is welcome actually. But continually going on and saying basically the same thing over and over when the point has already been made isn't needed.
fusor wrote:I guess Matt just wants to hear nice things about his products. And people wonder Mongoose doesn't get the message that they need to improve things when they just delete criticism.
Things are seen and changes are already being made to the new High Guard to fix issues found.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby allanimal » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:34 am

AndrewW wrote: a few things on the ship stats to be consistent (not all the ship stats where presented the same way).
Woo Hoo! Great news!
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby captainjack23 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:11 am

fusor wrote:
AndrewW wrote:Criticism is welcome actually. But continually going on and saying basically the same thing over and over when the point has already been made isn't needed.
Well apparently I have to make it again since someone decided to delete ALL of my posts here (including the initial one making the point). :roll:


I'm pretty sure that needing to repeat yourself isn't the best lesson to be learned from this. :|
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:19 am

He does have a point about moderator censorship - someone with moderator authority is deleting posts - and not just fusor's.

I commented on his (fusor's) comment about a lead playtester - in the credits of the book no less and a moderator on these boards - stating that they disliked CT HG and didn't see the point of it.

My post was deleted along with fusor's many posts and the moderator in person in question deleted his original post to remove the fact that he had said this.

So I will also make my point again:

I find it incredulous that a lead playtester didn't like the original or see the point in it and yet was allowed to shape the rules, it explains a lot.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby AndrewW » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:15 am

Sigtrygg wrote:I find it incredulous that a lead playtester didn't like the original or see the point in it and yet was allowed to shape the rules, it explains a lot.
Not really, they can comment on the parts they are interested in, or not. Playtesters (or anyone else) aren't required to give input to any particular parts.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:26 am

Sigtrygg wrote:I find it incredulous that a lead playtester didn't like the original or see the point in it and yet was allowed to shape the rules, it explains a lot.
That's kind of the point of playtesting. They spot something that's broken or missing, and they can choose to suggest, or they can let someone else do the commenting.

For instance you have someone like me, an individual who has never really created ships with HG, who was involved in some manner with playtesting the HG rules. And there was Gypsy Knights Games, who has an entire living depending on the HG rules, and there was the late, great Don McKinney whose involvement and investment in Traveller was colossal.

About the most I could contribute would be to check that that plus sign was supposed to be a plus sign and not a minus sign, or to let someone know they spelled "computer" as "computre" or something. The HG playtest - checking the design rules by actually using them to draw up some ships and run a few cap scale combats - was a game for the big boys, and I was definitely not one of them. So, faced with looking like I was out of depth or walking away with some dignity intact, I decided that I should "delegate" the task of playtesting HG to everyone else and went back to the trade and vehicles to check for typos.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:34 am

AndrewW wrote:Not really, they can comment on the parts they are interested in, or not. Playtesters (or anyone else) aren't required to give input to any particular parts.
If playtesters don't comment on the parts that they're interested in, then they're not serving any useful purpose. If they're not providing any input then they're wasting everyone's time. The whole point is to test out the product and provide feedback - not freeload off the publisher to get an early draft of the final product.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:40 am

alex_greene wrote:About the most I could contribute would be to check that that plus sign was supposed to be a plus sign and not a minus sign, or to let someone know they spelled "computer" as "computre" or something. The HG playtest - checking the design rules by actually using them to draw up some ships and run a few cap scale combats - was a game for the big boys, and I was definitely not one of them. So, faced with looking like I was out of depth or walking away with some dignity intact, I decided that I should "delegate" the task of playtesting HG to everyone else and went back to the trade and vehicles to check for typos.
Or you could have attempted to learn how to build ships using the HG rules. A fresh set of eyes with no experience is perfect for such things - experts who know it all inside out already are far more likely to take something for granted that a newbie would get stuck on. But then you'd actually have to be interested in the subject to be willing to do that. Playtesting isn't just for "the big boys", it's for anyone with a sharp eye who is willing and interested to make the product better.

So were you actually supposed to be the Lead Playtester? Or just *a* playtester? Who collated the material from the playtest to pass on to Mongoose (if anyone?). And what exactly did you do to deserve a credit in the book if all you did was check for typos?
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby AndrewW » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:46 am

fusor wrote:So were you actually supposed to be the Lead Playtester? Or just *a* playtester? Who collated the material from the playtest to pass on to Mongoose (if anyone?). And what exactly did you do to deserve a credit in the book if all you did was check for typos?
Mathew Sprange is in charge of things. As for collecting the material, Mathew was responsible for a lot of that, though I was also responsible for some parts of it.

Checking for typos is also useful.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:04 am

AndrewW wrote:Checking for typos is also useful.
A spellchecking program can check for typos (and sadly it seems that even they're not used enough nowadays). It's not the sort of thing that deserves an actual playtester credit (and I say this as someone who has taken part in and run playtests for other companies too). Elsewhere at least, the people who make it into the credits are those who made significant contributions to the playtest, noticed important things, and tested out a lot of systems and provided useful input - not spellcheckers.

And I'm flabbergasted that Matt was collating the material. The person who runs the company shouldn't be anywhere near a playtest - they've got better things to do than that, and trying to run a playtest while doing everything else that they're responsible for is just madness because it's certain that they're not going to be able to devote the time and effort required to keep on top of things - that's what Lead Playtesters are supposed to do. It's even worse when it's a disorganised public playtest with far too much noise relative to actual signal.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:06 am

fusor wrote:If playtesters don't comment on the parts that they're interested in, then
they comment on the parts they are interested in, like simplifying the trade, psionics and vehicle chase rules and running the text through Spellcheck Number One - a pair of eyes and an OED.

I commented on the Power Point yield of power plants in HG. I thought they could stand to be a bit more. And once I commented, I moved on to other areas of playtesting.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby alex_greene » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:09 am

fusor wrote:And I'm flabbergasted that Matt was collating the material.
Marc W Miller His Own Self, pbuh, was also involved closely in the playtesting. I still have the personal email he sent me in my email archive. Nothing flabbergasting about being involved at the playtesting stage of the production - it means that Matthew stays in touch with the process, and that he knows as much about his Traveller, first and second ed, as any one of us.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:52 am

alex_greene wrote:
fusor wrote:And I'm flabbergasted that Matt was collating the material.
Nothing flabbergasting about being involved at the playtesting stage of the production - it means that Matthew stays in touch with the process, and that he knows as much about his Traveller, first and second ed, as any one of us.
Sure, he may be personally interested in it but that doesn't mean he has to do a job that there's no reason for him to do.

It's no wonder people are finding issues with this book - but I guess that was the whole idea. The hilarious thing is that it had a public playtest for free, but Matt still apparently expects people to pay money to finish the playtesting process.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby MongooseMatt » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:54 am

fusor wrote:Apparently criticism of the way Mongoose does things and suggesting ways to make it better in the future is not allowed on this board, since someone has removed all my posts on this thread (I wasn't insulting, rude, or being nasty to anyone, just criticising the process).

I guess Matt just wants to hear nice things about his products. And people wonder Mongoose doesn't get the message that they need to improve things when they just delete criticism.
That was not me, and I will have a word with the person who did that - I have no issues with your criticisms, Fusor. None at all. Happy to have your standing over our shoulders to make sure things are better!
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby MongooseMatt » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:59 am

fusor wrote:
And I'm flabbergasted that Matt was collating the material. The person who runs the company shouldn't be anywhere near a playtest
We are not Microsoft or even Games Workshop. I think it would be extremely arrogant if I didn't go through everything we publish. I have deliberately altered the way that Mongoose runs so I do have the time to get properly involved in the actual design of our books.

Put another way, Mongoose has two employees other than myself. One handles 3D design, the other graphics and layout. Which one of those should be handling the playtests?
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby fusor » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:43 pm

msprange wrote:We are not Microsoft or even Games Workshop. I think it would be extremely arrogant if I didn't go through everything we publish. I have deliberately altered the way that Mongoose runs so I do have the time to get properly involved in the actual design of our books.

Put another way, Mongoose has two employees other than myself. One handles 3D design, the other graphics and layout. Which one of those should be handling the playtests?
Nobody needs to be "directly" handling the playtests (and good grief, do you not have any editors?). You don't need an employee specifically for that - what you do need is a Lead Playtester. Actually, I think you need to stop doing public playtests altogether because IMO they're a disaster. But since you've done a few of those, that means that you could pick out a core group of people who have been most useful in those and see if they want to be your core of volunteer playtesters. Then use those to privately playtest your material, and select one of them to be a Lead Playtester who will also be the liaison between you and the group. The Lead can then direct the group what to focus on if necessary and generally organise them, and compile the suggestions that they make and issues that they find into a coherent form and pass that along to you. Then whoever passes for an editor (or the writer, or whoever) at Mongoose can tick things off as they update the document and you'll know that you haven't missed anything.

That way you don't have to waste your time wading through dozens of discussion threads yourself trying to make sense of arguments that people have or trying to pick out the signal from the noise.
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Re: High Guard - On The Way

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:58 pm

mancerbear wrote:Despite the complaints, I would just like to go on record here as saying that I quite like the High Guard PDF. I know how hard it is to avoid errata in a published product, and I would much rather a product be published as a PDF to give everyone the chance to notice something wrong then find it in the print version. I don't see a problem with this, not in the least.
I agree. While there are a few bugs, I think that most of the issues are with the ship designs. But since you were copying the old, previously published designs, that really isn't your fault it was a bad design in the first place.

I quite like that everything is now in one place and flows so much better.

I look forward to my updated PDF.
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