New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
fusor
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:25 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby fusor » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:02 am

Lysander wrote:Strikes me that I've yet to call someone else a "Troll" on multiple occasions whom I might disagree with...as have you.
Someone who only makes short, snippy, snarky, unconstructive comments at every opportunity and phrases everything as a demand is what I'd call a troll (and he has a reputation as such too). Disagreeing with him has nothing to do with it - it's down to how he presents himself. Maybe if he actually engaged in conversations instead of throwing drive-by snark then he might shake that reputation - it's up to him though.
The game that some want isn't Traveller.
This may shock you, but you don't get to define what is or isn't Traveller for other people. Throughout its incarnations people have called it a ruleset, they've called it a setting, they've even called it both at the same time. Everyone's got their own idea of what "Traveller" is. If one thinks of it as a ruleset, then one can expand and add to that to make it whatever they like. I've run Mad-max like games where people drive through portals into a desert like hyperspace between star systems and called it Traveller, because I used Traveller rules for it. I've totally rewritten all the tech and ship design using FF&S as a base for a different post-apocalyptic setting (and using GURPS Traveller rules for some aspects of it too), and called it Traveller. If I want to strip out the OTU stuff and leave the rules and then add some extra stuff to it to run a cyberpunk game, then you know what? That's still Traveller as far as I'm concerned. Maybe what some people want isn't what YOU'd call Traveller, but you definitely are not justified in telling me or anyone else that the settings we make and run out of the rules "isn't Traveller".

And however many RPG sessions you've run don't make the blindest bit of difference to me - that doesn't give you any authority to argue from in discussions with others. I've gamed with people who do actually find more more realistic, simulation-like games to be "fun". I don't impose what I want to run on them, but I find players who want to play in the games I want to run. But again, you don't get to tell other people what they should or shouldn't consider to be "fun" just because you like more casual, social games. Each to their own.

So maybe instead of lecturing people about how they're having BadWrongFun, you might want to lighten up and accept that others want different things out of games than you do?
legozhodani
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:27 pm
Location: UK

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby legozhodani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:30 am

For everyone's cleverness and opinions on what Traveller is or isn't, this still hasn't dealt with the OP, and yes it does matter.

I am taking it that there is no competition to Traveller at the moment.
Jame Rowe
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Boston Area, MA/USA
Contact:

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Jame Rowe » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:33 pm

legozhodani wrote:For everyone's cleverness and opinions on what Traveller is or isn't, this still hasn't dealt with the OP, and yes it does matter.

I am taking it that there is no competition to Traveller at the moment.
Yeah, each Traveller campaign is going to be different.

Also, I'm a Traveller fan, and I plan to buy at least the Core 2E book, but I'm also a Pathfinder fan, and plan to buy Starfinder. So I could (conceivably) use Starfinder to gain new fans of Traveller! (Theoretically; I seem to have difficulty in practice.)
"Are you in charge here?"
"No, but I'm full of ideas!"

Baron Damascaa Kiikiigulii/Sakhag/Antares. Deal with it - come visit!
fusor
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:25 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby fusor » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:46 pm

legozhodani wrote:I am taking it that there is no competition to Traveller at the moment.
Apart from every other scifi RPG out there, you mean?

Again, what is this obsession with pretending that Traveller is king of the hill? It isn't - the Star Wars RPG beats the pants off it. At least as of 2015, Traveller wasn't even in the top 5 of RPGs by sales, while Star Wars and Shadowrun (two other science fiction RPGs) were: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/ ... -2015.html

EDIT: More up to date version from Fall 2015: Shadowrun is out of the top 5, but Star Wars is still there: http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/3 ... -fall-2015

(cue cries of "Bah, Star Wars doesn't count as scifi!")
Last edited by fusor on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
legozhodani
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:27 pm
Location: UK

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby legozhodani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:02 pm

I never said it was the only. I was asking! I don't do much internet stuff, too much real life.
fusor
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:25 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby fusor » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:10 pm

legozhodani wrote:I never said it was the only. I was asking! I don't do much internet stuff, too much real life.
The way you present something is really important: "I am taking it that there is no competition to Traveller at the moment." isn't asking - it's assuming (and also you are assuming that it is the only one by saying that). Whereas if you actually say "So, is there any competition to Traveller at the moment?" then you're asking. Unsurprisingly you'll get a different tone of response from that because it shows that you're willing to learn from the answer.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:03 pm

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Reynard » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:41 pm

His declarative was much a query as if worded as an inqury. I understood what he meant. Essentially, I don't know all the games out there. Does Traveller have a competitor? Even I wonder. I hang out at the local game store weekly and see all the SFRPGs. Frankly, I have no idea how any of them stack against Traveller. I've played the latest Star Wars for a couple games and wasn't thrilled at all. I considered SAGA Star Wars more playable and fun. I love Shadowrun but it's a sci fantasy and very focused on it's limited universe that hasn't changed so Shadowrun and Traveller share rather than compete. Many of the other RPGs I browsed seem so intent on being so awesomely different while being so focused I had to shelve them and pass. From that personal experience I saw no competition whether better or equal. I really don't need a new D&D sci fantasy since I still own Dragonstar and that was a good RPG for what it offered. I use to take Traveller adventures with obvious conversions.
rust2
Mongoose
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 1:35 pm
Location: Sonthofen, Germany

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby rust2 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:20 pm

Lysander wrote:There's a reason I seldom read anything Traveller related because of some of the types sci-fi RPGs tend to attract.
Unfortunately a very prudent approach. I used to visit this forum for seven years and almost 6,000 posts, but in the end I just got fed up with the style of too many of the posts, and decided to leave. When the new edition of Traveller was published, I fumbled my Intelligence check and returned to this forum, where obviously nothing much had changed in the meantime. Fortunately the alternatives to Traveller are improving, there will probably soon be a BRP Space, and Mythras - previously Runequest 6 - will be published in a generic version which will also support modern and science fiction settings. I really like d100 systems, too, so this makes it more easy to leave this forum again now. All the best for those who stay, have fun with Traveller. :)
"Mind like parachute, functions only when open"
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2532
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:22 am

legozhodani wrote:I am taking it that there is no competition to Traveller at the moment.
In the past, tabletop RPG players have used Traveller rules in combination with other sci-fi RPG rules. Sci-fi GMs usually had more than one sci-fi RPG in their game closet. Traveller would see use in some parts of a GM's world-trade building. Another sci-fi game like FTL:2448 or UNIVERSE might get some ship rules or planet building rules from them by the same GM.

On the player side of things, XP and leveling up were a much needed thing for their characters. Or maybe D100 was a better fit than 2D6? Some players moved to GURPS Traveller, or one of the other 3rd-party Traveller rule-sets because they liked the die mechanic in them better. Maybe a game's setting was most important? So players chose their sci-fi RPGs based on the kind of sci-fi novels they had read before, or movies they had seen.

Wiki has a list of most of the sci-fi RPGs here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ying_games. Some are out of print. Some are fairly new. Some games can easily compliment each other. Traveller rules will do Traveller best, of course. GURPS Traveller is GURPS played in a Traveller setting. I use some parts of the GURPS Traveller setting books in my Mongoose Traveller games.
fusor
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:25 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby fusor » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:34 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:*snip*actual contribution to the conversation*snip*
Maybe there's hope for him yet. ;)
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2532
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:42 am

rust2 wrote:
Lysander wrote:Fortunately the alternatives to Traveller are improving, there will probably soon be a BRP Space, and Mythras - previously Runequest 6 - will be published in a generic version which will also support modern and science fiction settings. I really like d100 systems, too, so this makes it more easy to leave this forum again now. All the best for those who stay, have fun with Traveller. :)
Did you ever try Hero Traveller? I never saw the rules for it. Mythras is very dry generic rules reading. Puts players to sleep.
Infojunky
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: North of Center California

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Infojunky » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:16 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote: Did you ever try Hero Traveller? I never saw the rules for it.
We did Hero Traveller years ago using the Danger International rules from Hero games, it work as well as any other Hero game. I have found the later days Hero crowd to be a lot more hung up on points...
Evyn
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2532
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:21 am

Infojunky wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote: Did you ever try Hero Traveller? I never saw the rules for it.
We did Hero Traveller years ago using the Danger International rules from Hero games, it work as well as any other Hero game. I have found the later days Hero crowd to be a lot more hung up on points...
I heard that after 3rd edition, the books got huge. I don't know if the BR books un-did some of that.
Lysander
Weasel
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:08 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Lysander » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:04 am

fusor wrote:
Lysander wrote:Strikes me that I've yet to call someone else a "Troll" on multiple occasions whom I might disagree with...as have you.
Someone who only makes short, snippy, snarky, unconstructive comments at every opportunity and phrases everything as a demand is what I'd call a troll (and he has a reputation as such too). Disagreeing with him has nothing to do with it - it's down to how he presents himself. Maybe if he actually engaged in conversations instead of throwing drive-by snark then he might shake that reputation - it's up to him though.
The game that some want isn't Traveller.
This may shock you, but you don't get to define what is or isn't Traveller for other people. Throughout its incarnations people have called it a ruleset, they've called it a setting, they've even called it both at the same time. Everyone's got their own idea of what "Traveller" is. If one thinks of it as a ruleset, then one can expand and add to that to make it whatever they like. I've run Mad-max like games where people drive through portals into a desert like hyperspace between star systems and called it Traveller, because I used Traveller rules for it. I've totally rewritten all the tech and ship design using FF&S as a base for a different post-apocalyptic setting (and using GURPS Traveller rules for some aspects of it too), and called it Traveller. If I want to strip out the OTU stuff and leave the rules and then add some extra stuff to it to run a cyberpunk game, then you know what? That's still Traveller as far as I'm concerned. Maybe what some people want isn't what YOU'd call Traveller, but you definitely are not justified in telling me or anyone else that the settings we make and run out of the rules "isn't Traveller".

And however many RPG sessions you've run don't make the blindest bit of difference to me - that doesn't give you any authority to argue from in discussions with others. I've gamed with people who do actually find more more realistic, simulation-like games to be "fun". I don't impose what I want to run on them, but I find players who want to play in the games I want to run. But again, you don't get to tell other people what they should or shouldn't consider to be "fun" just because you like more casual, social games. Each to their own.

So maybe instead of lecturing people about how they're having BadWrongFun, you might want to lighten up and accept that others want different things out of games than you do?
Bro, take a deep breath, chill...try the nose versus the mouth-breathing. Stuff down a nitro tablet or two...loosen the drawstring.

In general...just calm down.

I'm cool with the rules as they stand...kind of my point. You're the dude prancing about that wants to change and rewrite them. Still, I'm down with that...its a free country. Nonetheless, I'm not seeking to change the rules other than what they currently are - that's all you. Apparently being cool with the current rules somehow makes me the tyrant imposing my will on you.

"You Go Girl"...do whatever you want. Oprah and I are all behind ya'.

Yet, you've posted roughly 20% of the comments here with half of those being totally judgmental of everyone else's comments and generally browbeating of anyone who differs. I'm assuming you're kidding about the "lecturing" thing given most of the posts you have made.....it's a self-deprecating joke...right? Unless you are, well, like a really, really hostile Dude.

I've always considered self-awareness as a virtue but I never demand it of others...though I recognize those that are clearly lacking of it (as does most everyone, btw). Someone is lecturing here but apparently you've got no mirrors nearby. Admittedly, I surround myself with mirrors since I find myself drawn to gaze at my panther-like physique but all I can see as regards this particular discussion is, well, my panther-like physique....certainly nothing else.

Personally, I've got kids to raise, college tuitions to pay, not-for-profit boards to sit on, corporations to represent or deal with in bankruptcy (as in stressed, usually wealthy, adult people under life-changing circumstances to talk to)............and games to play - lots and lots of games to play. I am a self-admitted geek (with a degree or two, a modest bit of cash and some ongoing financial obligations) who has played imaginary games in my spare time for the last 25 years.

I'm just trying to impart a bit of real-life perspective as to how to have fun with Traveller consistently with an incredibly diverse group of game players to others here on this board that also want to have fun....and play for decades.

What you do is what you do. Good on ya'. Go for it. My sense is whatever you might choose to run is all the fun of a dental chair, though, ...some folks do like pain or the threat of it, anyway...just not anyone I care to hang with.

Seriously, do you really think I could care one miniscule whit as to what you do whether its in your parent's basement or in your childhood bedroom? I'm just trying to speak to those that want to have a little fun playing Traveller and make it fun and accessible for others for months or years at a time.

Good luck to you, though, bro. Good luck dealing with that "hyperspace terrain" issue too (that the current rules tragically TOTALLY fail to address...apparently). Hope your ship makes it through with its undoubted crew of one.
Last edited by Lysander on Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:15 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Lysander
Weasel
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:08 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Lysander » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:45 am

rust2 wrote:
Lysander wrote:There's a reason I seldom read anything Traveller related because of some of the types sci-fi RPGs tend to attract.
Unfortunately a very prudent approach. I used to visit this forum for seven years and almost 6,000 posts, but in the end I just got fed up with the style of too many of the posts, and decided to leave. When the new edition of Traveller was published, I fumbled my Intelligence check and returned to this forum, where obviously nothing much had changed in the meantime. Fortunately the alternatives to Traveller are improving, there will probably soon be a BRP Space, and Mythras - previously Runequest 6 - will be published in a generic version which will also support modern and science fiction settings. I really like d100 systems, too, so this makes it more easy to leave this forum again now. All the best for those who stay, have fun with Traveller. :)
I'd encourage you to stick with it. Those that actually play the game are pretty fun sorts. Our games generally featured a fair amount of alcohol, food and fun. Lots of guns too....slug throwers of course.

Ignore the crazies here or on COTI. its fairly easy to figure who they are....just find some friends and play. its all good, believe me. ANYBODY can have a ton of fun playing.

I'm pretty cool with Traveller in most all of its iterations. Loves me some New Era which we missjumped (sp?) into from Classic Traveller (honestly love New Era).

I do like percentile dice and have played 100s of Warhammer Fantasy RPG games (hate the universe but like the rules) and a Call of Cthulhu game or so. Both being percentile systems. I can see the appeal of BRP.

Really no fan of GURPS. I just think its too difficult....although they generated some absolutely awesome sourcebooks.

I'm still a Traveller guy (though I love the 2300 universe much more than the Imperium). I've ran it for a fair number of college age kids and they TOTALLY love the CHARGEN aspect...and play it solely for that.

I'd suggest you stick with it and avoid the malletheads who geek out on "Fire, Fusion and Steel" stuff and those things like it. Sure recipe for role playing disaster.

Hopefully, that's not you...but if it is....just let the kids play (kids being those under 90 years of age with law, engineering, physics, high school degrees, etc. - if everyone doesn't have fun then no one does...in the end).
Last edited by Lysander on Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
fusor
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:25 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby fusor » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:49 pm

Lysander wrote:Good luck to you, though, bro. Good luck dealing with that "hyperspace terrain" issue too (that the current rules tragically TOTALLY fail to address...apparently). Hope your ship makes it through with its undoubted crew of one.
Have you quite finished derailing the thread with your passive-aggressive personal attacks? Because I don't give a "miniscule whit" about you or what you do either, but at least I'm grown up enough to not call you names or be so obnoxiously judgemental about it (plus there's the blatant hypocrisy of claiming to be wanting to "preserve the fun in the game" and make it "accessible to everyone" while also saying that anyone who doesn't play like you do should be ignored or derided. Well, you can take that attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine). So let's agree to ignore eachother, right?
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5540
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:10 pm

Leveling up doesn't suit my idea of a modern or future game setting.

Experience points to improve individual skills and characteristics are always welcome.
AndrewW
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4069
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby AndrewW » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:12 pm

Why don't we all just agree to get along. There's no need for any name calling, personal attacks or anything else of that nature. Let us just discuss Traveller and leave the other stuff out of it. If you don't happen to like what someone else says fine, but you don't have to respond by attacking someone else for what they have said.

Note this isn't aimed at any one person.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:54 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Tenacious-Techhunter » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:49 pm

Lysander wrote:Regardless, when I read these debates I always question whether those who, essentially, want to run simulations (their personal simulations, btw) have ever played the game with other people. Traveller is, well, Traveller. It's not Eclipse Phase (I'm hoping to play it in the near future with our group since I love "Altered Carbon") or Transhuman Space.[/quote.

Eclipse Phase isn’t Hard Science Fiction; it’s Social Science Fiction. It’s all about people of various types interacting with each other. It’s like “GURPS: Transhuman Space” without any of the scientific rigor that makes it “GURPS”.
Lysander wrote:The game that some want isn't Traveller. That's all well and good that they want to make it something other than what it is but my suggestion is that they build their own game...
Except, when it comes to Hard Science Fiction and Simulationism, you’re wrong. The original Little Black Books were clearly designed around a simulationist mode of play. The details of constant thrust trajectories in the gravity wells of space were covered. Orbits were covered. The details were there, whether or not you chose to play with them. However, modern versions of Traveller have left this mode of play behind. The merit or lack of merit in this trend is legitimately a matter of opinion, on which we may differ. But blatantly ignoring the history of Traveller, in an attempt to reinforce the opinion that “My play style is correct!” is, quite frankly, documentably Bull@^!%, of the kind usually only uttered by Driscoll.
Lysander wrote:It took no particular genius to understand that the players were there to have fun......and that it wasn't about ME. It wasn't a laboratory for me to put the players through the latest rendition of string theory or quantum physics.
You’re trying to argue that simulationism only empowers the GM, or only empowers the smartest person at the table... but that isn’t true. By implementing a realistic version of something, players can use the regular every-day assumptions about how the world works and use them in the game. Every obscure little scientific fact they’ve ever known becomes a potential solution to an in-game problem. The world isn’t merely immersive... it’s also responsive; which means that creative solutions can be applied!

Lack of responsiveness can also lead to failure to suspend disbelief, just like lack of immersiveness can: “The MacGuffin is trapped inside an ordinary rubber ball... and you only have moments to get it out.” “Oh! I open a crack in the Liquid Nitrogen feed to the Life Support System, stick the ball in the stream, and freeze it! Then, I smash it open!” “You can’t smash it open, it’s rubber.” “Yeah, and that freezes in liquid nitrogen, and can then be smashed.” “It’s... not ordinary rubber after all... it’s... I dunno, it’s magic space rubber. You can’t shatter it that way.” “Ugh, fine; what do you want me to do with it? No, you know what? Forget it; let someone else play conductor on your railroad.”

By constraining the physics within the game, you constrain the actions of your players into the predictable. And while that can be important if your game is confined to a published adventure, or module, or whatever, it sucks the life out of games. It also means that every solution the players come up with will have to be predictable, and they’ll become bored, because they can’t apply their creativity.

Simulationism is something everyone gets to use; not just the GM, and not just the smartest, but also the creative, and even those who merely have a specialized knowledge in some obscure area. It can be a powerful tool for keeping people involved in their games, as opposed to waiting out for the resolution dictated by GM fiat.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:54 am

Re: New Paizo SF RPG: Competitor with Traveller?

Postby Tenacious-Techhunter » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:01 pm

Lysander wrote:Personally, I've got kids to raise, college tuitions to pay, not-for-profit boards to sit on, corporations to represent or deal with in bankruptcy (as in stressed, usually wealthy, adult people under life-changing circumstances to talk to)............and games to play - lots and lots of games to play. I am a self-admitted geek (with a degree or two, a modest bit of cash and some ongoing financial obligations) who has played imaginary games in my spare time for the last 25 years.
Being a busy person isn’t a license to insult people. You don’t get to claim you’re the better man just because you claim you have “a real life to worry about”. And it’s really just a thinly veiled attack about how any attempt to defend oneself is the act of a person with too much time on their hands. Take ownership of your dickishness and apologize for it if you can’t find a way to control it.
Last edited by Tenacious-Techhunter on Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BigDogsRunning, Hakkonen and 13 guests